D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[Chaosmancer]

"Come back tomorrow" only works if that wizard has that spell in their personal spellbook. Spell Versatility makes it work for any sorcerer of the appropriate level because they all have all the sorcerer spells potentially available to them tomorrow. Visiting one sorcerer is therefore the same as visiting any other sorcerer and there is no gamble. Visiting a wizard on the other hand might not be useful.

We are talking about an NPC right?

In which case... they will either have the spell or they won't. Period.

If the DM says that the sorcerer doesn't have access to that spell, no amount of players pointing to optional rules will change that.

I think that is a big thing that is a difference. Either between playstyles or intentions. If my players go to an arcanist of any stripe, I determine whether or not that NPC is capable of doing what they want. If they go to a wizard looking for help reaching a location and I decide that Wizard casts Wind Walk on them, even though that is not a wizard spell and the wizard should have no way to cast that, then that wizard casts Wind Walk on them.

So, I don't get the argument on how this rule changes the interactions with NPCs. It just doesn't, because the DM has always decided if a given spellcaster has the necessary spell. And they will use the same method to determine that that they always have. And if they change that, it is their choice as a DM.

 

[Ashrym]

I disagree that the spellbook will have all the spells worth having, because every utility spell is worth having for the time when you need it, but you might not have had the opportunity and funds to pick up all of them preemptively.

That being said, sorcerers do suffer from a lack of utility spells, so this problem isn't as extreme as it would be if they actually had access to the full wizard spell list. It only gets worse if more spells get added to the sorcerer class list however. Here are the most obvious examples that stand out to me of spells on both spell lists that might not be something the wizard has in his book, but might be something characters would visit an arcanist to get access to.

9th-level:
-Gate
-Wish*

7th-level:
-Etherealness
-Plane Shift
-Teleport

5th-level:
-Creation
-Teleportation Circle

*I assume anyone who can take wish, does take wish, but I'm apparently wrong in that. Same goes for certain other spells that seem like everyone would take them.

I realize that list isn't huge but that's assuming we are talking about going to the arcanist to have them cast a spell for the party on premises. If we are allowing the creation of scrolls, then it suddenly opens up a lot. In fact, with scrolls, sorcerers could theoretically create a scroll of every spell on their spell list, and then always have access to every spell on the sorcerer list Immediately rather than tomorrow. A wizard could only do that with spells in his own spellbook.

That's my whole point. Sorcerers don't have that much to offer in the first place when it comes to swapping those spells out, but the expectation is sorcerers are powerful arcane casters whom one would expect capable of such spells. That's why the concept is reinforced by being able to take those spells during downtime as opposed to punishing the sorcerer by forcing them to take those in their limited spells known during gameplay.

I fit those in sometimes and that's at the expense of the theme. Swapping them out for those odd times allows more room for maintaining a theme, although that's really still very limited.

Cutting spells out of the sorcerer list doesn't change how the mechanics work. If I have that choice as a player I'm just going to remove spells from the list that I wouldn't take anyway. Then I'm still accessing the entirety of the list I have left that I might use via spell versatility. That's just removing the chaff from the wheat. If the DM is going to remove spells from the sorcerer list that impacts the identity of what a sorcerer can be and if the DM is making house rules at all to accommodate spell versatility then I would ask why the DM doesn't just not include spell versatility if the first place. A situational benefit that I wouldn't use most of the time isn't a high impact whether it's included or excluded. I like the bit of flavor it can add but it's seriously not a significant benefit regardless. The spells known restriction is still what's going to really matter here.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

@Sword of Spirit, if you might. Is your point that part of wizard identity is to have a spell while the sorcerer can't, and that a sorcerer having a spell the party needs while the wizard doesn't somehow undermines that? Because, if that's the case, that ship has already sailed. A divine soul can already heal, raise the dead and inflict antimagic on the world, things that wizards can't do, not even with a day's heads up, not even with enough downtime to hunt for spells.

Of course I might be misunderstanding your point, so I apologize in advance for it.

Sort of. My point is that, given specific needed arcane spell X, any wizard of the appropriate level should be more likely to be able to access it both tomorrow, and during extended downtime, than a sorcerer of the same level.

I'm not a huge fan of the divine soul's design.

We are talking about an NPC right?

In which case... they will either have the spell or they won't. Period.

If the DM says that the sorcerer doesn't have access to that spell, no amount of players pointing to optional rules will change that.

I think that is a big thing that is a difference. Either between playstyles or intentions. If my players go to an arcanist of any stripe, I determine whether or not that NPC is capable of doing what they want. If they go to a wizard looking for help reaching a location and I decide that Wizard casts Wind Walk on them, even though that is not a wizard spell and the wizard should have no way to cast that, then that wizard casts Wind Walk on them.

So, I don't get the argument on how this rule changes the interactions with NPCs. It just doesn't, because the DM has always decided if a given spellcaster has the necessary spell. And they will use the same method to determine that that they always have. And if they change that, it is their choice as a DM.

That's fine in your game, but I don't run my worlds that way. Sure, if I've created an adventure or an adventure hook where there is a certain NPC spellcaster the party is expected to visit for certain reasons, they have whatever appropriate spells they should have. But if the party just decides on their own to seek out a caster, that caster will follow the basic rules of who knows what in the world. This means there is a random chance that they will have or not have any particular spell. I run a very simulationist (or explorationist as I prefer to call it) D&D multiverse.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's fine in your game, but I don't run my worlds that way. Sure, if I've created an adventure or an adventure hook where there is a certain NPC spellcaster the party is expected to visit for certain reasons, they have whatever appropriate spells they should have. But if the party just decides on their own to seek out a caster, that caster will follow the basic rules of who knows what in the world. This means there is a random chance that they will have or not have any particular spell. I run a very simulationist (or explorationist as I prefer to call it) D&D multiverse.

Okay, can you give me an example of how that works in play? Because, it sounds to me like you just roll a die and randomly generate spell lists. Which, if you do that for everyone, you are still going to do it, but seems like it would really negatively impact spells known NPCs.

I mean, if you make a Lore Bard, and roll their cantrips and they get True Strike and Blade Ward... they are going to be a out of place. So, how do you handle this process?

 

[Salthorae]

Okay, can you give me an example of how that works in play? Because, it sounds to me like you just roll a die and randomly generate spell lists. Which, if you do that for everyone, you are still going to do it, but seems like it would really negatively impact spells known NPCs.

I mean, if you make a Lore Bard, and roll their cantrips and they get True Strike and Blade Ward... they are going to be a out of place. So, how do you handle this process?

I don't want to put words in @Sword of Spirit 's mouth, but the way I do that in my games, if the PC's are looking for an NPC caster of a specific spell, I determine if someone is even in the town/area/region/city who can cast that spell depending on all the arcane/divine and level factors, then I would just roll a % die to see the likelihood that the relevant caster or casters (once for each) have that spell.

Either way, I'd have them do some "gather information" of whatever sort to find a person or the persons and then they'd have to go talk to them about the specific spell, regardless of what my rolls indicated. I have them find out IC that the caster either does or does not have that spell and is either will or unwilling to cast it for them.

Sometimes I'd let the group go on a side adventure to get a scroll for the wizard to add to their spellbook, and let them get the casting services for free since they helped the NPC get the spell in the first place.

 

[MoonSong]

Sort of. My point is that, given specific needed arcane spell X, any wizard of the appropriate level should be more likely to be able to access it both tomorrow, and during extended downtime, than a sorcerer of the same level.

I'm not a huge fan of the divine soul's design.

Have you considered this change?

"Spell Versatility: During downtime, a sorcerer can change one spell known for other of the same level. In times of extreme necessity, a sorcerer can do this during a long rest, but doesn't recover any hit dice during that short rest. Doing this is stressing at best and often quite traumatic. Most sorcerers are quite reluctant to attempt this, and even those who are willing do it won't take it lightly."

Also, you can declare that in your world non-adventuring sorcerers tend to be secretive and discrete, since they don't need to congregate -and win nothing out of being together unlike wizards- they are way harder to track than a wizard. This way you can keep both the simulation and your sensitivities. Sorcerers are way harder to track, and even if they can be found, they won't have every spell available, and won't be willing to search for one.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Okay, can you give me an example of how that works in play? Because, it sounds to me like you just roll a die and randomly generate spell lists. Which, if you do that for everyone, you are still going to do it, but seems like it would really negatively impact spells known NPCs.

I mean, if you make a Lore Bard, and roll their cantrips and they get True Strike and Blade Ward... they are going to be a out of place. So, how do you handle this process?

So, there's a slight difference between how I'd do it in an adventure situation (ie, I'm making this NPC with their own goals and interests) and an exploration situation (the PCs go looking for something I haven't already created, and I figure out what they find).

In the first situation, I'd create a spell list that makes sense for the NPC and lets them do what I think they should be doing in the adventure context. I don't give them spells that are particularly good or bad against any particular PCs--my adventures are PC agnostic. The exception would be if we are dealing with NPCs who know they are up against these particular PCs, and might have time to acquire spells for a spellbook (or find a scroll) that they know would be particularly useful against these PCs.

In the second situation, I'd also create a spell list that makes sense for the NPC, but since they don't have an explicit adventure context, more randomness is involved. I determine how many spells they should know based on the class they are (or are approximating if I use a simplified NPC statblock). I usually start by giving them spells I think are standbys. For instance, most wizards get detect magic, identify, and mage armor, as well as dispel magic if they are of the correct level, and probably a fireball or lightning bolt. Then I give them spells that make sense for them to have from an in-character perspective. I put myself in their place and think what spells I would seek out if I were them. This usually adds a few more spells to the list, but not too many. If we're dealing with a wizard, I usually give them more spells than the PHB does, to take account of the fact that they've probably added some to their spellbook. I determine this number randomly and arbitrarily, say by rolling a d8 for a 3rd level wizard in one situation for example. To fill out what spells the remaining ones are, I assume they know at least two of each level, and I randomly divide them amongst levels using whatever roll feels right at the time. For each spell, I give them a small (maybe 5% or less) chance of having it be from outside of the PHB. The rest of the time it's from the PHB. I open up a spreadsheet with all the 5e spells listed, and sort it by class and PHB/not PHB. I then just roll randomly with an equal chance of any spell on the list. Sometimes (particularly after I've already rolled a few), I roll 2 and choose 1. Now if I'm not dealing with a wizard, chances are there aren't going to be many (if any, depending on the level) random picks, because I've likely used up all their spells known by the time I've decided what this character's theme is and filled it out. So you aren't going to get that bard with useless cantrips unless they make sense for his character and not having a decent attack cantrip also makes sense. One of the cool things about the random rolls--especially in regards to spells in a wizard's spellbook beyond the ones he gains by leveling--is that it allows for spells that were acquired from found spellbooks or scrolls, rather than ones that were hand chosen. In that sense, it looks more like a PC's spellbook who likely runs across random spells in his adventures. Another cool thing is that it provides opportunities to insert spells that I just wouldn't ever choose on my own, but might create interesting situations.

I use similar random techniques to fill out the remaining spells in the first situation also.

Here's an actual example that works for both kinds of situations.

The 2e Planescape adventure "The Eternal Boundary" had an NPC mage named the Shadowknave. I didn't create the adventure, so the NPC already has his schtick and doesn't initially know anything about the PCs. His spell list is partly pre-chosen as in the first situation, and will partly be filled out as in the second situation.

The Shadowknave is a 6th-level mage, and it lists his memorized spells as: change self, charm person, phantasmal force, sleep, invisibility, scare, feign death, and slow.

Most of those spells go right into his spell book to start him out. However, neither scare nor feign death exist in 5e. XGtE includes cause fear which is pretty close to scare, so that goes in. Feign death plays an important role in the adventure--except that there was a mistake in the design, because its description in the 2e PHB doesn't even allow it to do what the adventure thinks it does. So I just gave the Shadowknave a few doses of a poison that creates the desired effect instead.

A 6th-level wizard in 5e has at least 16 spells (at least 8 of which must be 1st-level) and 4 cantrips. I hand-picked his cantrips with a couple standby utilities and an attack spell. I picked a few standby 1st-level spells. I gave him fear just to stick with the scare theme, and fireball because it's fireball and you should have it unless you don't like fire. He doesn't have it prepared because he lives in Sigil and the big city isn't exactly the best place to be creating large explosions without attracting attention. I might have picked another one or two of the remaining ones that seemed on theme, and I randomly determined the last few using the method I described. I apparently decided he wasn't lucky or wealthy enough to have more than his minimum of 16. His spellbook ended up looking like this:

Cantrips: mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation, shocking grasp
1st Level: cause fear, charm person, detect magic, disguise self, false life, mage armor, shield, sleep
2nd Level: invisibility, levitate, phantasmal force, ray of enfeeblement, suggestion
3rd Level: fear, fireball, slow

For his prepared spells, in 5e he would be allowed one or two more than he had, so I gave them to him, although I don't remember which ones (likely shield).

After we defeated him, this spellbook was a nice piece of loot for the party's then 3rd-level warrior-mage. Now, some of the spells (especially those standbys) he already had, but when he hits 5th-level he won't have to spend one of his automatic level up spells on fireball.

Does that make sense?

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Have you considered this change?

"Spell Versatility: During downtime, a sorcerer can change one spell known for other of the same level. In times of extreme necessity, a sorcerer can do this during a long rest, but doesn't recover any hit dice during that short rest. Doing this is stressing at best and often quite traumatic. Most sorcerers are quite reluctant to attempt this, and even those who are willing do it won't take it lightly."

Also, you can declare that in your world non-adventuring sorcerers tend to be secretive and discrete, since they don't need to congregate -and win nothing out of being together unlike wizards- they are way harder to track than a wizard. This way you can keep both the simulation and your sensitivities. Sorcerers are way harder to track, and even if they can be found, they won't have every spell available, and won't be willing to search for one.

That's probably still a little too permissive for me, but it does give me a cool idea. Maybe I could allow sorcerers to change a known spell during a long rest if they have a scroll with that spell, and expend the scroll. So basically, scroll dependent Spell Versatility. I'll have to think about that some more.

 

[Ashrym]

Most of those spells go right into his spell book to start him out. However, neither scare nor feign death exist in 5e. XGtE includes cause fear which is pretty close to scare, so that goes in.

I might be misinterpreting what you are saying here. Feign death is on page 240 of the player's handbook.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, there's a slight difference between how I'd do it in an adventure situation (ie, I'm making this NPC with their own goals and interests) and an exploration situation (the PCs go looking for something I haven't already created, and I figure out what they find).

In the first situation, I'd create a spell list that makes sense for the NPC and lets them do what I think they should be doing in the adventure context. I don't give them spells that are particularly good or bad against any particular PCs--my adventures are PC agnostic. The exception would be if we are dealing with NPCs who know they are up against these particular PCs, and might have time to acquire spells for a spellbook (or find a scroll) that they know would be particularly useful against these PCs.

In the second situation, I'd also create a spell list that makes sense for the NPC, but since they don't have an explicit adventure context, more randomness is involved. I determine how many spells they should know based on the class they are (or are approximating if I use a simplified NPC statblock). I usually start by giving them spells I think are standbys. For instance, most wizards get detect magic, identify, and mage armor, as well as dispel magic if they are of the correct level, and probably a fireball or lightning bolt. Then I give them spells that make sense for them to have from an in-character perspective. I put myself in their place and think what spells I would seek out if I were them. This usually adds a few more spells to the list, but not too many. If we're dealing with a wizard, I usually give them more spells than the PHB does, to take account of the fact that they've probably added some to their spellbook. I determine this number randomly and arbitrarily, say by rolling a d8 for a 3rd level wizard in one situation for example. To fill out what spells the remaining ones are, I assume they know at least two of each level, and I randomly divide them amongst levels using whatever roll feels right at the time. For each spell, I give them a small (maybe 5% or less) chance of having it be from outside of the PHB. The rest of the time it's from the PHB. I open up a spreadsheet with all the 5e spells listed, and sort it by class and PHB/not PHB. I then just roll randomly with an equal chance of any spell on the list. Sometimes (particularly after I've already rolled a few), I roll 2 and choose 1. Now if I'm not dealing with a wizard, chances are there aren't going to be many (if any, depending on the level) random picks, because I've likely used up all their spells known by the time I've decided what this character's theme is and filled it out. So you aren't going to get that bard with useless cantrips unless they make sense for his character and not having a decent attack cantrip also makes sense. One of the cool things about the random rolls--especially in regards to spells in a wizard's spellbook beyond the ones he gains by leveling--is that it allows for spells that were acquired from found spellbooks or scrolls, rather than ones that were hand chosen. In that sense, it looks more like a PC's spellbook who likely runs across random spells in his adventures. Another cool thing is that it provides opportunities to insert spells that I just wouldn't ever choose on my own, but might create interesting situations.

I use similar random techniques to fill out the remaining spells in the first situation also.

Here's an actual example that works for both kinds of situations.

The 2e Planescape adventure "The Eternal Boundary" had an NPC mage named the Shadowknave. I didn't create the adventure, so the NPC already has his schtick and doesn't initially know anything about the PCs. His spell list is partly pre-chosen as in the first situation, and will partly be filled out as in the second situation.

The Shadowknave is a 6th-level mage, and it lists his memorized spells as: change self, charm person, phantasmal force, sleep, invisibility, scare, feign death, and slow.

Most of those spells go right into his spell book to start him out. However, neither scare nor feign death exist in 5e. XGtE includes cause fear which is pretty close to scare, so that goes in. Feign death plays an important role in the adventure--except that there was a mistake in the design, because its description in the 2e PHB doesn't even allow it to do what the adventure thinks it does. So I just gave the Shadowknave a few doses of a poison that creates the desired effect instead.

A 6th-level wizard in 5e has at least 16 spells (at least 8 of which must be 1st-level) and 4 cantrips. I hand-picked his cantrips with a couple standby utilities and an attack spell. I picked a few standby 1st-level spells. I gave him fear just to stick with the scare theme, and fireball because it's fireball and you should have it unless you don't like fire. He doesn't have it prepared because he lives in Sigil and the big city isn't exactly the best place to be creating large explosions without attracting attention. I might have picked another one or two of the remaining ones that seemed on theme, and I randomly determined the last few using the method I described. I apparently decided he wasn't lucky or wealthy enough to have more than his minimum of 16. His spellbook ended up looking like this:

Cantrips: mage hand, minor illusion, prestidigitation, shocking grasp
1st Level: cause fear, charm person, detect magic, disguise self, false life, mage armor, shield, sleep
2nd Level: invisibility, levitate, phantasmal force, ray of enfeeblement, suggestion
3rd Level: fear, fireball, slow

For his prepared spells, in 5e he would be allowed one or two more than he had, so I gave them to him, although I don't remember which ones (likely shield).

After we defeated him, this spellbook was a nice piece of loot for the party's then 3rd-level warrior-mage. Now, some of the spells (especially those standbys) he already had, but when he hits 5th-level he won't have to spend one of his automatic level up spells on fireball.

Does that make sense?

Okay, so, I said that in most cases the spellcaster will either know the spell or not, because the DM will determine what spells they have and decide that fact.

Your response was "But if the party just decides on their own to seek out a caster, that caster will follow the basic rules of who knows what in the world. This means there is a random chance that they will have or not have any particular spell. "

But, in your example, you say this.

In the second situation, I'd also create a spell list that makes sense for the NPC, but since they don't have an explicit adventure context, more randomness is involved..... I usually start by giving them spells I think are standbys....Then I give them spells that make sense for them to have from an in-character perspective. I put myself in their place and think what spells I would seek out if I were them.

So... you do exactly what I said. You determine what spells they have, choosing what makes sense. You even give a list of standard spells that every wizard has prepared, and talk about themes, explaining that casters will follow a theme with their spells and you decide and choose that.

And in regard to spells known classes, like sorcerers, you say explicitly.

Now if I'm not dealing with a wizard, chances are there aren't going to be many (if any, depending on the level) random picks, because I've likely used up all their spells known by the time I've decided what this character's theme is and filled it out.

So, since you do exactly what I was saying a DM usually does, and you only get random spells for wizards, whom you give more spells than other classes to represent their growing spellbook. So how is it that my point of "DMs will either give a character the spell or they won't" doesn't apply here? Because occassionally a wizard, since they have so many more spells than is needed for a single theme will also get some random spells?

I'm honestly confused how you can tell me you make random spell lists as an exploratory campaign style and then in your example spend most of the time talking about how you tailor the spell selection to fit the theme of the character you are designing. That is not random. That is determining what spells the spellcaster has, like I said.