D&D 5E Those who come from earlier editions, why are you okay with 5E healing (or are you)?

[The Crimson Binome]

I have several times now called out mechanics that better represent physical injury than HP loss: failed death saves, exhaustion and other negative conditions, long-term injuries from the DMG, flaws, and effects that prevent you from regaining HP are all better options, take your pick.

Failed death saves only apply after you're unconscious. They can't possibly reflect catching an arrow in the back and then running away, which is a common enough occurrence that it demands representation.

Long-term injuries are not simple or easy to use. They aren't even in the PHB. If I wanted complexity in my model, I'd play GURPS instead.

Exhaustion reflects exhaustion, (which is something else worthy of modeling, although not to the same extent as physical injury). To say that the exhaustion rules actually reflects physical injury would be disingenuous. There is very little overlap between the exhaustion rules, and the rules for what happens when you get hit by a weapon.

If we want to make up entirely new rules to reflect physical injury, because the rules in the book are deficient, then that's fine. Anyone can do that. That's what I did. But you have to recognize that you aren't playing D&D anymore.

You’ve got it backwards. What the game needs is a resource that the players must manage over the course of an adventuring day is taxed by combat and various out of combat hazzards. Since it doesn’t make narrative sense for such a resource to represent physical injury, another narrative explanation is required. An abstract quality that roughly measure’s the character’s ability to keep fighting is suitable for this purpose.

That's the problem. You see this is a game, so you're trying to rationalize it into making some sort of sense.

Rationalization is not a useful tool here. Whatever answer it leads you to, it's not useful beyond the level of a mere game. It certainly can't generate a meaningful narrative, the way a traditional RPG would, because the ultimate answer for why anything happens, will always just be that "it's a game".

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's the problem. You see this is a game, so you're trying to rationalize it into making some sort of sense.

Rationalization is not a useful tool here. Whatever answer it leads you to, it's not useful beyond the level of a mere game. It certainly can't generate a meaningful narrative, the way a traditional RPG would, because the ultimate answer for why anything happens, will always just be that "it's a game".

Unless you mean RPG as in Rocket Propelled Grenade I think that seeing it as a game is a perfectly valid approach. Because RPG stands for Role-Playing Game.

Additionally, if you think HP prevents you from making a narrative as a "Traditional RPG would" then I have to point out that DnD is the most traditional RPG you can get. It was literally one of the first ones ever created, and it has always used HP to my knowledge.

And yet, despite being burdened with HP, we have been able to create meaningful narratives for decades. Yes, Bob the Fighter fell on poisoned spikes fifteen times yesterday, and today seems perfectly hale and hearty even though if this were a simulation of reality Bob would probably never walk or fight again.

We also do not narrate the fact that near continuous fighting for the past three hours should leave everyone barely able to breath or lift their weapons.

Or the fact that even drinking water would likely result in many virulent diseases that would kill Bob before he ever reached the dungeon.

Or the fact that all that gold he dragged out of the dungeon would likely tank the economy of the Hamlet and lead to an economic depression.

Or the fact that all those paintings and tapestries would likely be seized by local nobles and leave Bob penniless, or at perhaps even on trial for some sham or another to steal all his valuables, because Bob is a peasant.

Or the fact that, as a peasant, Bob should likely not be allowed to travel with weapons and armor on display, and he would be treated with fear and suspicious everywhere he went.

Or literally dozens of other things that would be more realistic to make for a more accurate simulation of a real world, but would not be as fun for the game. But it is a game, and as such, we have aspects of it that are not perfectly realistic, because it is either easier or more fun to do it this way than "the real way".

 

[Umbran]

D&D represents a simplified model. There needs to be a way to mechanically represent the narrative of physical injury, and Hit Points are the only mechanic in the book that are remotely relevant. Either HP damage represents physical injury, or there are no rules for physical injury.

So, how things are worded matters.

Hit Points can represent many things, one of which is physical injury.

I will note that the DMG has rules for lasting injuries beyond just hit points, if you choose to use them. So the "only mechanic" element there is a bit of an overstatement.

What we don't need are rules to model vague whatever, short-term exhaustion, or plot armor. Those aren't things that happen frequently within a fantasy narrative.

I don't know if we agree on plot armor. Plot armor is not an explicit thing in fantasy narratives. Plot armor is a metagame (more broadly meta-fictional) thing - when characters survive otherwise impossible situations because, well, they are main characters, and can't die at that point of the story.

Every time you see a squad of stormtroopers lay down a hail of gunfire, and don't manage to hit a gosh-darned thing? That's plot armor. And it happens all the time in fantasy narratives.

 

[Iry]

If success is allowing players to have fun, by giving them an efficient way to model an interesting speculative setting, then we also have a lot of winners.

I must admit that you're starting to lose me. Could you explain what you are speaking about in greater detail?

 

[Big J Money]

Ugh, 11 pages before I was able to get back and reply to this. I may have to revisit this thread at a later time when I've had time to really digest it. But I want to respond to a recurring theme I see:

Yeah, honestly, I see DnD as a heroic game. It's pulp fiction action books. The character can have their leg broken and a chapter later jump from one ship to another - a good player will wince in pain and keep going, but at the end of the day, you're heroes and this is a movie.

This has me scratching my head. In what movie about heroes do the heroes heal all of their wounds overnight without the aid of technology or magic? My experience reading and watching about heroes is that they must at some point suffer through adversity or pain (that which cannot be resolved automatically overnight) in order to prove that they are heroes within the story. What you are describing to me sounds more like superheroes when they are fighting normal criminals. And even superheroes, when faced with a real threat, suffer issues such as losing their powers, acquiring vulnerabilities that can be exploited, etc.

So, the explanation that automatic nightly regeneration of HP is because they're heroes doesn't adequately explain this for me.

That being said, I do agree that part of the issue here is the abstraction of HP. I'm not going to go into that subject in any detail because it could be its own 100 page thread (and it has been, time and time again). However, I'll agree that because HP is such an abstraction, it's a challenge to have a healing system that pleases everyone. You have problems on both sides:

1) You can allow HP regen overnight, and you can argue that this works because the HP were never wounds in the first place. But what you sacrifice here is the capability for PCs to be able to suffer wounds. You also create the problem that healing magic isn't actually healing anything, it's simply restoring stamina, or mental fortitude, or whatever it is that you imagine is being expended when HP are used up. Essentially, the PCs never suffer any harm. I find this to be a very unsatisfying way to tell stories about heroes. It's more like a Saturday morning cartoon.

2) You can allow only a very small amount of HP per night, and you can argue this works because it allows for PCs to suffer wounds that require natural healing. But what you sacrifice here is that HP are supposed to represent more than just physical damage, and also you sacrifice the more heroic mode of play where, most of the time, PCs don't have to be sitting in a hospital for weeks on end, and can continue having adventures (without a dedicated cleric-healing-bot).

I see neither solution to be sufficient. I like someone's idea about splitting out Vitality and Hit Points like the way the d20 Star Wars RPG did it. I think this is the house rule I would try:

Hit Points: All characters begin play with 8 Vitality points (plus Con bonus) at level 1, regardles of class. Starting at level 2, characters gain Hit points according to their class rules.

Damage: When a character takes damage, remove their hit points, first. Once hit points have been depleted, begin removing Vitality Points.

Death: When a PC suffers damage below 0 VP that is equal to their amount of VP+HP, they are instantly dead. Otherwise the rules work the same as 5E.

Healing: Short and Long resting works as per the 5E rules with regards to hit points and hit dice. Vitality points are healed at 1 point per full night of rest, or with magic. When using magical healing, vitality points are always recovered before hit points.

Direct Damage (optional): You could rule that certain damage applies directly to vitality, such as falling, if you want to*. You could also rule that instant death from said damage occurs when the damage goes below 0 by an amount equal to their Vitality (rather than VP + HP).

Wounds (optional): I am not stopping to think about this in detail yet, but you could have a system whereby whenever vitality damage is suffered, there is a chance the character suffers a wound that must be healed. I would say the healing occurs once they have recovered back the VP level they were at before they suffered the wound. Ex. If a character with 8 VP takes 6 damage and suffers a broken rib, the rib will heal once they are back at 8 VP again.

Those of you who already worry about level 1 being so dangerous for PCs, just start play at level 2, or give the PCs a level of HP on top of their VP. I don't worry about this because level 1 being dangerous is a part of my style of running games. Actually, I might run the game at level 0 before hitting level 1, where they not only get HP but they get their class features. So at Level 1 they would be stronger than usual 5E Level 1 characters but they had to get through a very deadly Level 0 before they made it to that point. It's a game that starts out gritty but transitions into being more heroic.

Edit:
*Thinking about the math here a bit more. A character that falls 20 feet would take 7 damage on average, meaning most likely they will still be concious but gravely wounded, and in the worst case they would suffer 12 damage, meaning they could never be killed from this height. It's not until they fall 30 feet that a level 1 character could actually die, but that would be a 1 in 216 chance, so it's not likely. Once you get to 40 feet, the average damage is 14, and the chance of outright death is pretty high. Breaking this down:

Falls (For characters with 10 or 11 Con)
20 feet = Likely gravely wounded but still concious
30 feet = Likely gravely wounded and unconcious
40 feet = Just as likely to be gravely wounded or killed
50-70 feet = Most likely will be killed but could survive
80 feet = Very unlikely to survive a fall from this height
160 feet = Completely impossible to survive a fall from this height

This seems plausible but gritty. If you wanted to have falling damage apply directly to VP for some realisim but still want your game to be heroic, I would recommend 1d4 per 10 feet for falling damage.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Big J Money]

Or, in the more pejorative sense, one side prefers Marvel Super Heroes (but with Hobbits and Legolas)

Frodo is wracked in pain, fever and is useless for days after taking the Nazgul blade. Gandalf takes weeks (or is it months?) to recover from his battle with the Balrog. Boromir is killed by orcs. There are many times where the heroes choose to flee rather than to fight monsters. These are not 5E heroes you're talking about. Nothing about the Lord of the Rings pertains to heroes that fight every monster in the dungeon and heal all their wounds overnight.

It doesn't even pertain to Marvel. How many scenes are there in the movies where a hero is ripped to shreds and needs to take time to heal before they can battle again? And when they try to get into a fight they are fighting at less than full strength until a point comes along where they've been refreshed? That recovery point is usually not, "I just need to go to bed for the night and I'll be fine in the morning."

Like I said in my post, I agree that providing only 1 HP per night is patentedly not heroic. But neither is healing all HP every night. They are both two extreme ends of the spectrum; and both equally distasteful in my opinion.

 

[Big J Money]

There is, and probably always will be, a divide between those who prefer their D&D to be heroic fantasy, with every person being their own, independent, awesome fantasy hero ... and those who prefer their D&D to be more team-oriented, swords & sorcery, and gritty.

You're perceiving a false dichotomy. This is what happens when you see things dogmatically. It's not a binary "gritty" vs "heroic"; it's a sliding scale. How much grittiness do you want in your game? How much heroism? It's like making a soup, you don't have to have 0 salt or a pound of salt; you get to choose how much you want.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Umbran]

The other is more party-centric; the roles of the players are very much complementary, and the model is more "swords and sorcery" and gritty realism.

Interestingly, the icons of the swords and sorcery genre - Conan, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, and their ilk - are not generally part of teams that work like well-oiled tactical machines.