D&D 5E Boop

[Tony Vargas]

They need some kind of resource, sure. Only the rogue operates sans recharging resources.

And the fighter without too-significant ones, relying on the power-grinding-DPR of Extra Attack for relevance. To a lesser extent, all the half-casters also have a higher at-will grinding baseline than full casters, that their slots or Ki points or whatever can synergize with.

The advantage of a full caster chassis actually is the disadvantage: that low baseline provided by 'mere' cantrip scaling, it leaves room for the more versatile resources that support contributions need to make the right contribution, to a sufficient degree, when it's most desperately needed.

Honestly, I'd like to see the Warlord without even that: just weapon attacks as it's at-will baseline, no reskinned-cantrip scaling, no Extra Attack. Scaling could come from resources - and from allies.

But what if they were refluffed spell with no components and that worked in anti-magic zones?

They'd still just be re-fluffed spells 'prepared' on long rests, and slots re-gained by 'resting.'

Spells & slots and 'chassis' could be used in the design process, as we saw when MM pulled back the curtain on that process, a little, in some of his streams, but the actual resources could be quite different...

but they don’t need to be long rest, they just need to have enough to use them in every fight.

The don't even need to be keyed to rests directly, just correspond to 'daily' or long-rest enough that sufficiently high-impact, sufficiently versatile resources can fit in the rough spell-slot-DPR-equivalent math of 5e class design.

and support doesn’t require healing as well as afull caster. Healing is the only aspect of support that requires big spell slots, and it isn’t soemthing every support character needs to focus on.

Healing is only one aspect of support, but when you really need to stand up the most-critical-to-the-situation PC, and have him stay up at least until your next turn, in extremis, you better have some really potent healing. The same goes for each other aspect of support - broader and muddier than Leader in 4e - and the control and other contributions it shades into.

At bottom, the character in that role needs to be able to turn things around when they're at their worst. It requires the opposite extreme of the design spectrum from the character that reliably grinds out the same contribution, round after round, all day long.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

And the fighter without too-significant ones, relying on the power-grinding-DPR of Extra Attack for relevance. To a lesser extent, all the half-casters also have a higher at-will grinding baseline than full casters, that their slots or Ki points or whatever can synergize with.

The advantage of a full caster chassis actually is the disadvantage: that low baseline provided by 'mere' cantrip scaling, it leaves room for the more versatile resources that support contributions need to make the right contribution, to a sufficient degree, when it's most desperately needed.

Honestly, I'd like to see the Warlord without even that: just weapon attacks as it's at-will baseline, no reskinned-cantrip scaling, no Extra Attack. Scaling could come from resources - and from allies.


They'd still just be re-fluffed spells 'prepared' on long rests, and slots re-gained by 'resting.'

Spells & slots and 'chassis' could be used in the design process, as we saw when MM pulled back the curtain on that process, a little, in some of his streams, but the actual resources could be quite different...

The don't even need to be keyed to rests directly, just correspond to 'daily' or long-rest enough that sufficiently high-impact, sufficiently versatile resources can fit in the rough spell-slot-DPR-equivalent math of 5e class design.

Healing is only one aspect of support, but when you really need to stand up the most-critical-to-the-situation PC, and have him stay up at least until your next turn, in extremis, you better have some really potent healing. The same goes for each other aspect of support - broader and muddier than Leader in 4e - and the control and other contributions it shades into.

At bottom, the character in that role needs to be able to turn things around when they're at their worst. It requires the opposite extreme of the design spectrum from the character that reliably grinds out the same contribution, round after round, all day long.

I think our baselines and assumptions about the game are simply too different for this to be a useful discussion. IMO, nearly every statement in your post is wildly, objectively, wrong.

hell, you even completely discount any significance of the fighter’s short rest features. In other posts you simply refuse to acknowledge the scaling that comes with more attacks, and the ability to add support effects to an individual attack.

there simply isn’t any common ground, here.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think our baselines and assumptions about the game are simply too different for this to be a useful discussion.

The baseline assumptions are, some of 'em, laid out for us:

a 6-8 encounter, 2-3 short rest 'work day.'
challenges per the encounter guidelines.

the rest, like the extant class designs, are subject to reverse engineering. That is, where MM hasn't helpful demonstrated said design process.

What are you assuming is different from the above?

IMO, nearly every statement in your post is wildly, objectively, wrong.

Objectively wrong?

So, Extra Attack doesn't provide a high DPR baseline? Classes without it don't get substantial & versatile resources?
Support contributions aren't ever reactive or situational and shouldn't ever let the party recover from a severe set-back?

Or, what, exactly, is your counterpoint?

hell, you even completely discount any significance of the fighter’s short rest features. In other posts you simply refuse to acknowledge the scaling that comes with more attacks

The fighter's short-rest features are a poorly-scaling self-heal that only works while you're conscious, and Action Surge, which, though quite potent, is simply an accelerator - zero increase in versatility, just grind out an extra round of whatever you'd be doing anyway.

The power of action surge and Extra Attack is not something I discount, at all, far from it, it's the reason the Fighter - BM & PDK - failed so dramatically as Warlord surrogates, they simply were too deeply invested in that high-DPR at-will baseline.

and the ability to add support effects to an individual attack.

Doesn't exactly let the BM get by as a party's sole support contributor, does it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Doesn't exactly let the BM get by as a party's sole support contributor, does it.

It does, actually. Yes.

edit: to be clear, it does so if you add a broader set of support manuevers, and realize that EA and AS multiply whatever the fighter does with attacks, nor just damage.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It does, actually. Yes.

I don't see it. The BM has very few and very limited nominally-support maneuvers.

What does he do when half the party's down the second round of combat? When they're locked down by hard-to-save against effects? When they're outnumbered, surprised, can't hit the enemy enough? Surrounded and need to retreat?

edit: to be clear, it does so if you add a broader set of support manuevers, and realize that EA and AS multiply whatever the fighter does with attacks, nor just damage.

For some maneuvers. Tellingly, for instance, not Rally. Might be room for the DM to interpret Commander's Strike or Distracting Strike as 'stacking' with extra attacks.
Clearly applies to Maneuvering Attack (so y'got "need to retreat" covered, if you've got a CS die left for each member of the party engaged in melee, and they each get an action after you but before the monsters can re-engage, anway).

If a BM does go blowing through his 4-6 or 7 CS dice with EA & SA, he could tap himself out in a single round. That seems like very expensive 'scaling' compared, say, to up-casting.

So, no, doesn't seem too significant as far as the party's support needs in a tight spot go.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't see it. The BM has very few and very limited nominally-support maneuvers.

What does he do when half the party's down the second round of combat? When they're locked down by hard-to-save against effects? When they're outnumbered, surprised, can't hit the enemy enough? Surrounded and need to retreat?

For some maneuvers. Tellingly, for instance, not Rally. Might be room for the DM to interpret Commander's Strike or Distracting Strike as 'stacking' with extra attacks.
Clearly applies to Maneuvering Attack (so y'got "need to retreat" covered, if you've got a CS die left for each member of the party engaged in melee, and they each get an action after you but before the monsters can re-engage, anway).

If a BM does go blowing through his 4-6 or 7 CS dice with EA & SA, he could tap himself out in a single round. That seems like very expensive 'scaling' compared, say, to up-casting.

So, no, doesn't seem too significant as far as the party's support needs in a tight spot go.

You always ignore key elements of a post in these arguments. It’s frustrating.

expand the maneuver list.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You always ignore key elements of a post in these arguments. It’s frustrating.
expand the maneuver list.

Sorry, yes, you can expand the maneuver list. But, the BM represents about as impactful as maneuvers can be on the fighter chassis, and about as heavy on CS dice resources as it can be - and neither are sufficient, however much variety you may add.

And, they're still just piggybacking all that DPR. So you add an inspiring attack maneuver that, say, on a hit, you roll that CS die, add it to damage, and one ally gets the result as a bonus to his next save. You need to get the party out of lockdown, so you AS, pop that off as many times as you have attacks & CS dice... and also just chop the baddie to bits, yourself, because you're hitting as hard as any other best-at-fighting fighter.


Now, on a chassis with more room for resources, adding not just more maneuvers but level-gated maneuvers that are higher-impact, and more focused on support, definitely a way to implement it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sorry, yes, you can expand the maneuver list. But, the BM represents about as impactful as maneuvers can be on the fighter chassis, and about as heavy on CS dice resources as it can be - and neither are sufficient, however much variety you may add.

And, they're still just piggybacking all that DPR. So you add an inspiring attack maneuver that, say, on a hit, you roll that CS die, add it to damage, and one ally gets the result as a bonus to his next save. You need to get the party out of lockdown, so you AS, pop that off as many times as you have attacks & CS dice... and also just chop the baddie to bits, yourself, because you're hitting as hard as any other best-at-fighting fighter.


Now, on a chassis with more room for resources, adding not just more maneuvers but level-gated maneuvers that are higher-impact, and more focused on support, definitely a way to implement it.

You literally could add level gated maneuvers to the BM.

And Group buffs. And group debuffs. A variant fighter could easily gain enough extra dice to bring a BM up to “half caster” status.

But the concept will always hit stuff as it’s main thing. That is what the concept is. Period. The lazy lord is an offshoot that is nice if supported by absolutely not necessary.

 

[FrogReaver]

You literally could add level gated maneuvers to the BM.

And Group buffs. And group debuffs. A variant fighter could easily gain enough extra dice to bring a BM up to “half caster” status.

But the concept will always hit stuff as it’s main thing. That is what the concept is. Period. The lazy lord is an offshoot that is nice if supported by absolutely not necessary.

The battlemaster doesn't have the number of superiority dice to be a warlord for a whole combat, let alone a day.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The battlemaster doesn't have the number of superiority dice to be a warlord for a whole combat, let alone a day.

It’s almost like I’ve said several times in this thread, including in the post you quoted, that a variant fighter feature could add dice to the class.