D&D 5E Enough is Enough: WotC needs to add "domain spells" to *existing* sorcerer subclasses

[DammitVictor]

Also, the argument against giving Sorcerers extra spells is that they eventually end up with more prepared spells than a Wizard of the same level, which definitely steps on the Wizard's toes.

That's kinda the point. The Wizard changes his prepared spells every single day. The Sorcerer's spells known are the only spells he'll ever be able to cast-- so he really should have more of them. The current status quo is an incomprehensible oversight.

Doubly so, given the Sorcerer also has a narrower list of spells to choose from.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's kinda the point. The Wizard changes his prepared spells every single day. The Sorcerer's spells known are the only spells he'll ever be able to cast-- so he really should have more of them. The current status quo is an incomprehensible error.

I say it’s a feature!

 

[PsyzhranV2]

I say it’s a feature!

How is every sorcerer ever taking the exact same set of meta spells or being rendered painfully unviable a feature?

 

[FrogReaver]

How is every sorcerer ever taking the exact same set of meta spells or being rendered painfully unviable a feature?

Does the same argument apply to the Wizard?

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Does the same argument apply to the Wizard?

No, because the Wizard:

• Knows a minimum of 44 (miscounted the first time) spells and can prepare 25 at Level 20, as opposed to the Sorcerer's hard limit of 15,
• Can prepare different spells after every long rest to suit the situation, and
• Has a much bigger and flexible pool of spells on their spell list.

This means that the Wizard has more breathing room to take utility and thematic spells, as opposed to the Sorcerer, who either needs to find a niche and hyper focus it or end up a worse Swiss Army knife than the Wizard. And plus, no self-respecting caster that has access to them would pass up Haste or Polymorph, except the Wizard can do so and still have space left for less "meta", more situationally useful spells. The Sorcerer can't.

At the very, very least, the Bard, the other Charisma spells known full caster, gets 22 spells known, even if 6 of them are from Magical Secrets as opposed to the normal progression. Contrast that with the Sorcerer's piddling 15 - in fact, it's the same number of spells known that the Ranger, a half-caster has!

 

[tetrasodium]

No, because the Wizard:

• Knows a minimum of 46 spells and can prepare 25 at Level 20, as opposed to the Sorcerer's hard limit of 15,
• Can prepare different spells after every long rest to suit the situation, and
• Has a much bigger and flexible pool of spells on their spell list.

This means that the Wizard has more breathing room to take utility and thematic spells, as opposed to the Sorcerer, who either needs to find a niche and hyper focus it or end up a worse Swiss Army knife than the Wizard. And plus, no self-respecting caster that has access to them would pass up Haste or Polymorph, except the Wizard can do so and still have space left for less "meta", more situationally useful spells. The Sorcerer can't.

At the very, very least, the Bard, the other Charisma spells known full caster, gets 22 spells known, even if 6 of them are from Magical Secrets as opposed to the normal progression. Contrast that with the Sorcerer's piddling 15 - in fact, it's the same number of spells known that the Ranger, a half-caster has!

No it does still pretty well apply to wizard. The spell lists having such an insane level of overlap outweighs what you bring up. Also it doesn't matter much if a spell is in the spellbook & maybe prepared on occasion for giggles but not used much if at all.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

No it does still pretty well apply to wizard. The spell lists having such an insane level of overlap outweighs what you bring up. Also it doesn't matter much if a spell is in the spellbook & maybe prepared on occasion for giggles but not used much if at all.

The wizard also gets rituals that don't need preparation, and more choices of which spells to use for the same basic purposes (even damage dealing--the wizard gets more options). The sorcerer really is much more dependent on taking the few "right" spells.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

Wizards prepare Level + Int spells per day, so let's compare using Starting Int of 16 via standard array and assuming maxing it out as quickly as possible at 4th & 8th, only getting the free spells at level up in their book & sorcerer getting 1 or 2 bonus spells knowns

• 1st level
  • Wizard = 4 spells prepared out of 6 in their spellbook
  • Sorcerer
    • 1 bonus/spell level = 2+1= 3 known 1st level spells
    • 2 bonus/spell level = 2+2= 4 known 1st level spells
• 3rd level
  • Wizard = 6 prepared spells out of 10 in their spellbook
  • Sorcerer
    • 1 bonus/spell level = 4+2 = 6 known spells
    • 2 bonus/spell level = 4+4 = 8 known spells
• 4th level
  • Wizard = 8 prepared spells out of 12 in their spellbook
  • Sorcerer = 7 or 9 known spells
• 8th level
  • Wizard = 13 prepared spells out of 20 spells in their spellbook
  • Sorcerer = 13 or 17 known spells
• 12th level (at this point sorcerers only get +1 every 2 levels)
  • Wizard = 17 prepared spells out of 28 spells in their spellbook
  • Sorcerer = 17 or 22 known spells
• 17th level (at this point a sorcerer get no more known spells)
  • Wizard = 22 prepared spells out of 38 spells in their spellbook
  • Sorcerer = 20 or 25 known spells
• 20th level
  • Wizard = 27 (25+Singature spell) prepared spells out of 44 spells in their spellbook
    • Wizard at this point also has 1x 1st level spell and 1x 2nd level spell they can cast unlimited per day and 2x 3rd level spells that are always prepared and can cast 1/long rest without a slot
  • Sorcerer = 20 or 25 known spells.

So that reinforces my thought that 1 spell per level is fair. It helps reinforce the origin theme, and at WORST it gives the sorcerer as many options in spell variety per day as the wizard.

Don't forget that Wizards still get all those lovely rituals in their spellbooks. Sorcerers don't get any ritual casting without spending a feat or multiclassing.

This is something I was considering myself the other day. Having given my current sorcerer not only origin spells but also buffed a few other things here or there, I can say that what I think is sort of the best option is to give them a list of 10 spells from levels 1st-5th like warlock/cleric/druid/etc. and give them a free spell each odd level selected from that list. Eventually they get all 10, but can pick them at whatever order they wish. I also make them part of the spell list for their sorcerer, so they can pick them up early if they wish using a normal spell known (picking any sorcerer spell when they run out of the origin spells later). I feel it works in the long run without overloading them from levels 1-9th.

 

[tetrasodium]

The wizard also gets rituals that don't need preparation, and more choices of which spells to use for the same basic purposes (even damage dealing--the wizard gets more options). The sorcerer really is much more dependent on taking the few "right" spells.

Yea rituals are useful, but those are a half baked problem of their own.
Filtering out the duplicates

1. Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Floating Disk, Identify, Illusory Script, Unseen servant
2. Gentle repose, Magic Mouth, Skywrite
3. Feign Death, Tiny Hut, Water Breathing
4. none
5. Contact Other Plane*, Instant Summons, Telepathic Bond

A good number of those are also on other class lists (including divine casters like cleric who can grab them at any long rest without the cost of scribing)... When was the last time you ever saw someone use contact other plane, skywrite, ritual feign death, magic mouth, Gentle repose, or illusory script so much that they could be considered a keystone component of their character?... With the loss of int mod bonus languages, a wizard is on the same footing of knowing stuff like languages as everyone else despite being the guy who should know them without needing a spell as a scholar. Yes the wizard has more spells, but with so much overlap in the "right" spells it doesn't much matter & the two feel very similar in play. Comprehend languages might come up occasionally sure, but if it comes up often you probably need nonritual tongues so you can speak rather than just understand & tongues is not unique to the wizard list.

 

[Weiley31]

I still think that for the Sorcerer, they should use the Spell Points Variant for their spells, but for the Metamagic features, Sorcery Points should be used to fuel them.

I used to think both should be combined, but now I'm pondering this.