D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[MoonSong]

@MoonSong your using a really wide brush for that "wizard players" grouping . As a GM I despise how badly sorcerer copies from wizard & tops it off with extra toys, it makes for a very difficult balancing act if I have a sorcerer pretending he's a wizard at the same table as an actual wizard.

It was literally a group of wizard players. I don't know how many they were, but they were extremely noisy and hard to miss. At the very least they were a very vocal minority. I can't find the exact quotes anymore -thanks to software change in these boards and wotc dumping all old articles-. All I know is it happened before October 2012 and that a group of wizard players demanded more toys and then went on to ask for sorcerer removal.

As for your opinions on what is or not a wizard thing, I'm not sure where we draw a line. Wizards get plenty of exclusive toys as it is, way more than a sorcerer. With the exception of Divine Soul, a wizard can easily replace 1.5 to 2 sorcerers of the same level. The only thing a first level wizard can't do better than a first level sorcerer is making concentration checks. There's no "extra toys" here, one extra cantrip and the ability to blow all slots in a single combat is all a sorcerer gets over wizard.

 

[FrogReaver]

you having trouble keeping up? I went over the proficiencyskill overlap here... but here it is again.
Wizard:
Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs,
light crossbows
Tools: None
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion

Sorcerer
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons (ie light crossbows plus club, dagger, greatclub, handaxe, javelin, light hammer, mace, quarterstaff, sickle, spear, unarmed strike, dart, shortbow, & sling)
Tools: None

and here is the spell list overlap

• Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
• 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
• 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
• 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
• 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
• 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
• 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
• 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
• 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
• 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague

So on & so forth but 6th level spells on on is well into the point where campaigns have ended or are ending & wotc's own numbers from ddb support that. No doubt there are a handful of useful spells in wizard list but not sorc list... problem being is that almost every single one of the "right spells" as people have been labeling them are on both lists & the spells unique to wizard or ritual spells are not enough to build any kind of meaningful theme or niche around.... If paladin, ranger, EK, & AT had this kind of overlap in so much of their class features people would wonder why they were different classes.

The question wasn't what does the sorcerer share with the wizard...

What does the sorcerer get that's wizard themed? A wizard getting something doesn't alone make it wizard themed.

 

[Minigiant]

maybe the sorcerer should start by getting out of the wizard's designspace to some significant degree?

Well that's the fault of several editions of designers supported by a small vocal group of fans halfway designing the sorcerer because they didn't like the class in the first place.

If you did that in a video game, the official forums and all the streamer videos would be pure toxic sludge.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

What does the sorcerer get that's wizard themed? A wizard getting something doesn't alone make it wizard themed.

What they have in common is that someone watching a Wizard and a Sorcerer side by side, casting their spells, would probably not be able to tell them apart, nor would someone watching a Wizard player and a Sorcerer player. As a class, Sorcerers don't have a strong flavor: they are mostly a downgraded wizard, with nothing distinctive, nothing that pops out or make them unique.

 

[MoonSong]

you having trouble keeping up? I went over the proficiencyskill overlap here... but here it is again.
Wizard:
Armor: None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs,
light crossbows
Tools: None
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion

Sorcerer
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons (ie light crossbows plus club, dagger, greatclub, handaxe, javelin, light hammer, mace, quarterstaff, sickle, spear, unarmed strike, dart, shortbow, & sling)
Tools: None

and here is the spell list overlap

• Cantrip 100% overlap: every single cantrip in the phb on wizard is also on sorcerer list
• 1st level spells: every spell overlaps except wizard has alarm, grease, Identify, Illusory Script, Longstrider, PfG&E,
• 2nd level spells: Most spell overlaps except wizard also has access to these while sorc does not... Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Flaming Sphere, Gentle Repose, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Magic Weapon, Melfs acid arrow, Nystul's Magic Aura, Ray of enfeeblement, Rope Trick,
• 2nd level sorcerer has these spells wizard does not: Enhance ability.
• 3rd Level: Wizard has these spells not on sorcerer list... Animate dead, Bestow Curse, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Tiny Hut, Magic Circle, Nondetection, Remove Curse, Sending, Vampyric Touch
• 3rd Level: Sorcerer has daylight , while wizard does not
• 4th Level: Wizards also have Arcane Eye, Conjure Minor Elementals, Control Water, Black Tentacles, secret chest, Locate Creature, Faithful Hound, Private Sanctum, Resilient Sphere, Phantasmal Killer,
• 4th Level: Sorcerer has dominate beast
• 5th: Wizard has Bigsby's Hand, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Dream, Gaes, Legend Lore, Mislead, Modify Memory, Passwall, Planar Binding, Telepathic Bond, Scrying, Wall of Force
• 5th: Sorcerer has insect plague

So on & so forth but 6th level spells on on is well into the point where campaigns have ended or are ending & wotc's own numbers from ddb support that. No doubt there are a handful of useful spells in wizard list but not sorc list... problem being is that almost every single one of the "right spells" as people have been labeling them are on both lists & the spells unique to wizard or ritual spells are not enough to build any kind of meaningful theme or niche around.... If paladin, ranger, EK, & AT had this kind of overlap in so much of their class features people would wonder why they were different classes.

MMM, wizards don't get to have themes -from spell selection-, a wizard is a broad niche invader by definition. Mostly because you can't trust they'll keep to a theme, and in part because they can have way more spells prepared than what a theme calls for.

Sorcerers don't have enough spells to pick all of "the right spells", they basically pick one or two hammers and hope to have enough room left for their theme.

Edit: Also, your proficiency list is wrong, it seems you copied the Warlock list by mistake.

 

[MoonSong]

What they have in common is that someone watching a Wizard and a Sorcerer side by side, casting their spells, would probably not be able to tell them apart, nor would someone watching a Wizard player and a Sorcerer player. As a class, Sorcerers don't have a strong flavor: they are mostly a downgraded wizard, with nothing distinctive, nothing that pops out or make them unique.

Not really, the wizard is the one casting more varied spells and more often. The sorcerer is casting the same spells over and over if not already just cantrips because she wanted to do something flashy -or very subtle - for a change.
The blame is not the sorcerer. The sorcerer is the victim here of unforgiving parties and adventure design that punish poor spell selection. And of the designers that can't for their lives give sorcerers anyhting nice without also giving it to the wizard -cof cof Loremaster-. Or the wizard players that can't see sorcerers get anything nice without also wanting it. -cof cof retrain a single spell overnight-

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

It was literally a group of wizard players. I don't know how many they were, but they were extremely noisy and hard to miss. At the very least they were a very vocal minority. I can't find the exact quotes anymore -thanks to software change in these boards and wotc dumping all old articles-. All I know is it happened before October 2012 and that a group of wizard players demanded more toys and then went on to ask for sorcerer removal.

As for your opinions on what is or not a wizard thing, I'm not sure where we draw a line. Wizards get plenty of exclusive toys as it is, way more than a sorcerer. With the exception of Divine Soul, a wizard can easily replace 1.5 to 2 sorcerers of the same level. The only thing a first level wizard can't do better than a first level sorcerer is making concentration checks. There's no "extra toys" here, one extra cantrip and the ability to blow all slots in a single combat is all a sorcerer gets over wizard.

And wasn't Monte Cook working on 5e at that point, who has a well known bias for wizards and against almost everything else?

 

[MoonSong]

Right. Even the 5e wizard has mechanics get in the way of producing a sorcerer theme.

So maybe start here, what sorcerer mechanic get's in the way of the sorcerer theme?

Arcane focus and lack of simple weapons for a start.

 

[MoonSong]

And wasn't Monte Cook working on 5e at that point, who has a well known bias for wizards and against almost everything else?

You are confusing Monte Cook with Skip Williams. Skip Williams is the one who hates sorcerers. I can't remember correctly, and I can't find the source, but I think it was either Monte or Jonathan Tweet the one who created the sorcerer in first place.

 

[tetrasodium]

The question wasn't what does the sorcerer share with the wizard...

What does the sorcerer get that's wizard themed? A wizard getting something doesn't alone make it wizard themed.

You literally quoted me repeating my earlier posts laying out wide swaths of overlap on both classes and then ask this nonsense like you couldn't figure it out? did you not read it? You might be trying to make an argument, I'll give you that, but you forgot to actually make it & seem to be expecting me to make it for you.

@MoonSong It's all well and good to say like "wizards don't get to have themes -from spell selection-, a wizard is a broad niche invader by definition" but the fact remains that someone watching a sorcerer is not going to see any obvious difference from a wizard with the same spell selections in play. Instead of crying that sorcerer's can't get enough of the wizard's box of mechanics to be careless with it, complain that sorcerer's don't have a clear mechanical box of their own. If the sorcerer had a clear niche of it's own, it wouldn't need to hope they fit a wizard's niche well enough to be a top shelf wizard/arcanist and great social type. Look at the AT, EK, Pally, & Ranger... all of them share significant chunks of their spell list with some other full caster but are not top shelf with them & won't ever get confused as the class they draw spells from because they have significant mechanical contributions from their own class features that set them apart on a parallel shelf.