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5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

Undrave

Hero
Yea, I'd agree with that. Maybe every background gives 4 skills baseline and a tool proficiency. And the special feature probably can carry a little more weight.

Assuming no multiclassing and no feats as a baseline, and therefore no variant human, maybe backgrounds could even have a feat (non-combat only) or feat-level ability baked in baseline as well.
Basically yeah. Probably a pair of feature, one more mechanical (like the Outlander's foraging skills) and one more ribbon-like (Criminal contact). I'd probably put something like 'Favored Terrain' in a background instead of directly a Ranger class.
 

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tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
Hahaha, I don't know about that...



Well, a way to do it would be to excise culture from race? Borrowing from PF2 a little, character creation would thus be like this:

Step 1: Pick a race, you gain biological attributes and a +2 to three stats
Step 2: Pick a culture in broad stroke like "Militaristic", "Atavist", "Mercantile", "Theocratic" etc, giving you +2 to a stat, +1 to another and then some skills in the Social/Explo pillar
Step 3: Pick a background. You get another +2 and +1 and then some more skills and tools proficiency
Step 4: Pick a narrow class, giving you again +2 and +1

In the end, if you pick all the options that give a bonus to the same two stats after the Race bonus you end up with 18, 15, 12 10 10 10 if you go hyper specialized.

How's that?



You seem pretty hung up on how 3e used to do things. You should try not to focus so much on exact mechanics.
You are misinterpreting the fact that it's relevant that sorcerer and warlock design cannibalized wizard for their 5e versions, just copied nearly all of what they didn't take exclusively, and wotc filled in what remains with largely empty ribbons I was directly asked to explain "what was a solely wizard only tool in its toolbox that the sorcerer stole" and did so.

as to your not focus on exact mechanics point, I would be all for it if there were meaningful (or actual) mechanics in the wizard class that filled the wizard's empty gap to set it apart from the classes that copy virtually all of the wizard's spell list including the must have critical spells plus bring class features of their own to the table set with the top shelf spells from the wizard's spell list. There are no mechanics to focus on.. because... well.. sorcerer & warlock stole the ones not dropped from the game.
 
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TwoSix

The hero you deserve
Supporter
Basically yeah. Probably a pair of feature, one more mechanical (like the Outlander's foraging skills) and one more ribbon-like (Criminal contact). I'd probably put something like 'Favored Terrain' in a background instead of directly a Ranger class.
Agreed.
 

Undrave

Hero
You are misinterpreting the fact that it's relevant that sorcerer and warlock design cannibalized wizard for their 5e versions, just copied nearly all of what they didn't take exclusively, and wotc filled in what remains with largely empty ribbons I was directly asked to explain "what was a solely wizard only tool in its toolbox that the sorcerer stole" and did so.

as to your not focus on exact mechanics point, I would be all for it if there were meaningful (or actual) mechanics in the wizard class that filled the wizard's empty gap to set it apart from the classes that copy virtually all of the wizard's spell list including the must have critical spells plus bring class features of their own to the table set with the top shelf spells from the wizard's spell list. There are no mechanics to focus on.. because... well.. sorcerer & warlock stole the ones not dropped from the game.
Eh... Here you go again focusing on mechanics they had in the past rather than if the current mechanics can properly express the lore of the current Wizard (and not the lore of 2e or 3e or 4e Wizard).

You speaking of 'stolen' mechanic tells me you feel the Wizard is owed certain mechanics, certain abilities. No class is owed anything. Just because the Wizard had everything arcane casters had in the past means it should get everything arcane now.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
You are misinterpreting the fact that it's relevant that sorcerer and warlock design cannibalized wizard for their 5e versions, just copied nearly all of what they didn't take exclusively, and wotc filled in what remains with largely empty ribbons I was directly asked to explain "what was a solely wizard only tool in its toolbox that the sorcerer stole" and did so.

as to your not focus on exact mechanics point, I would be all for it if there were meaningful (or actual) mechanics in the wizard class that filled the wizard's empty gap to set it apart from the classes that copy virtually all of the wizard's spell list including the must have critical spells plus bring class features of their own to the table set with the top shelf spells from the wizard's spell list. There are no mechanics to focus on.. because... well.. sorcerer & warlock stole the ones not dropped from the game.
You are going to have to spell out which warlock invocations and features were stolen from wizard feats. Cause all I can see is essentially the same invocation names warlock had in complete arcane. (Its original incarnation as a class)

Now, back to sorcerer. You are assuming that sorcerer is the reason wizard lacks metamagic. In fact it is very likely the only reason metamagic is in this edition is because of the sorcerer. The reasoning is twofold. One, early playtest showed the designers had a hard time comming with workable and satisfactory metamagic mechanics. And metagic feats suddenly vanished once Neovancian was in place. Two, sorcerer was put together at the last minute, by that time wizard was nearly in its final form, so it had zero influence on how the wizard was designed. The decision to take away metamagic from wizards had nothimg to do with the sorcerer. Under this reasoning, the sorcerer didn't steal metamagic but rather salvaged it...

Edit: Ok, it wasn't exactly in this way, the last packet to have metamagic as feats was march, 2013. The next one in August 2013 removed metamagic and was the first to introduce wizard as "generic" Mage and laid the basis for the finalized wizard design.
 
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set it apart from the classes that copy virtually all of the wizard's spell list
The wizard has more unique spells in it's PH list than any other class: 33.
The Warlock got 6 unique spells.
The Sorcerer, none.

You speaking of 'stolen' mechanic tells me you feel the Wizard is owed certain mechanics, certain abilities.
Wizard privilege?
What's next? Wizard guilt? Wizard savior syndrome?
 

oreofox

Explorer
Wizard losing bonus feats that could be metamagic or item creation feats in 3e means nothing. Sorcerer lost the ability to have a familiar unless they burn a feat for it to learn the Find Familiar spell. The wizard can still obtain a familiar without such. WotC hasn't known what exactly to do with the sorcerer since they first made it 20 years ago. The fact that it has been 15 years since they created it when they had the chance to really do something different in 5e that wasn't "wizard but worse" seems to show that WotC doesn't care for it. Sorcerers having metamagic seems like a bandaid fix to give sorcerer some sort of class ability besides Font of Magic.

They seemed to care more about the warlock than they did the sorcerer. Warlock gets 6 things in the PHB to choose from (3 patrons, 3 pacts), while the sorcerer gets 2 (dragon and wild magic). Wizard gets 8. As stated earlier, sorcerer has 1 unique spell, while warlock and wizard have multiple. Sorcerers get 3 subclass features as they level (6, 14, 18), wizard also gets 3 (6, 10, 14).

The wizard's toolbox was sparse to begin with, other than their arcane spells. The sorcerer's toolbox was practically nonexistant. It was the wizard, but worse. That's been WotC design direction with the class, it seems, for 20 years now. I hope they can do something unique with the sorcerer (hell, even the wizard) like they did the warlock when it comes to 6th edition.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
@Undrave can't help but notices that wide circle you made around the point of the 5e wizard not having core mechanics that they bring to the table in meaningful fleshed out ways beyond the spell list copied by sorcerer & warlock. There have been a couple times in this thread where people have had to admit "well uhh.. tiny hut.. detect magic... some other super niche stuff like phantom steed" only after much cajoling to be specific & even then they needed to dress it up in flavorful text to obscure how empty the strawman of a mechanic they were inflating was rather than just listing the specifics.

If you don't like the parallels to past editions, perhaps you'd like to expound on the wizard's core class mechanics that really set it's duplicated spell list access apart from classes like warlock & sorcerer who effectively have all the meaningful portions of the wizard spell list and core class mechanics that shine. Be specific, don't just say "ritual magic, bigger spell list"... This thread has gone over those & nobody has been willing or able to admit what meaningful contribution those play at the table other than the occasional niche edge case

@Tony Vargas the sorcerer has a few wizard does not have, I made a list earlier. Enhance ability, daylight, dominate beast, & insect plague. I don't know if your none also includes cleric/warlock/bard/etc. Critically important to your "more unique spells" point is the fact that few if any (depending on your criteria for weighing them) are not the critical must have top shelf spells. If you click on that link there that says earlier you can see the last time someone tried to build an argument around those spells & they couldn't even do it without obfuscating the sprells behind descriptive text, maybe you are itching to do better?

@oreofox on those "wizards get eight" point, they took a core class mechanic & made it an archtype. Sorcerer's draconic bloodline is a bunch of feats & wild magic was a PrC that I sourced earlier. The wizard arcane toolbox was indeed "practically nonexistant" because the toolbox was those bonus feats and differences to how the int mod applied to various things. In short it was extensive. they took a portion of the core class that applied at level 1 rather than a feat grouping or PrC & made it into the vast majority of wizard archtypes then cut the rest including some of that core class stuff from the game
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the sorcerer has a few wizard does not have, I made a list earlier.
I saw it. Good list. Illustrates the blatant favoritism shown the wizard. ;P

The Sorcerer has no spells uniquely it's own, though. It shares a lot with wizard, some with cleric or druid, etc.

The wizard, OTOH, 33 spells all it's own, but for the odd poach-anything options.

Find Familiar
Grease
Tenser's Floating Disk
Arcane Lock
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Rope Trick
Phantom Steed
Arcane Eye
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Leomund's Secret Chest
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Bigby's Hand
Passwall
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Wall of Force
Contingency
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Wall of Ice
Sequester
Simulacrum
Clone
Maze
Telepathy
Prismatic Wall
Weird

Critically important to your "more unique spells" point is the fact that few if any (depending on your criteria for weighing them) are not the critical must have top shelf spells.
If you can compile a definitive list of critical, must-have spells, that eat up most casters' known spells, the game has much bigger problems.
 
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Undrave

Hero
@Undrave can't help but notices that wide circle you made around the point of the 5e wizard not having core mechanics that they bring to the table in meaningful fleshed out ways beyond the spell list copied by sorcerer & warlock. There have been a couple times in this thread where people have had to admit "well uhh.. tiny hut.. detect magic... some other super niche stuff like phantom steed" only after much cajoling to be specific & even then they needed to dress it up in flavorful text to obscure how empty the strawman of a mechanic they were inflating was rather than just listing the specifics.

If you don't like the parallels to past editions, perhaps you'd like to expound on the wizard's core class mechanics that really set it's duplicated spell list access apart from classes like warlock & sorcerer who effectively have all the meaningful portions of the wizard spell list and core class mechanics that shine. Be specific, don't just say "ritual magic, bigger spell list"... This thread has gone over those & nobody has been willing or able to admit what meaningful contribution those play at the table other than the occasional niche edge case
Hey mostly because I agree the Wizard has a bland identity and uninspiring class features (aside, again, for the Diviner and Abjurer's single speciality), but I just don't agree in blaming the Sorcerer for it basically. Plus, the Wizard is still strong, it's just bland.

Personally though, I think Ritual Magic is pretty cool and there just should have been more rituals and the Wizard should have had features to make them better at it than anybody else. It's a fun concept that doesn't feel fully realized.
 

oreofox

Explorer
@tetrasodium The dragon bloodline subclass for the sorcerer is just the Dragon Disciple PrC from 3e. The wizard had its core mechanics expanded upon, same with the cleric (domains). What was the sorcerer's core mechanic from 3e? Spontaneous casting. But that's also part of the bard, and the bard gets other things. All classes in 5e can "cast spontaneously", stealing the sorcerer's schtick, only they can change their "spells known" every time they wake up from an 8 hour rest. Except the ranger, but they have more going for them than the sorcerer. If not for the metamagic, sorcerers would have practically no use for sorcery points except to make more spell slots. Very few of their subclass features use sorcery points. Take away metamagic, you may as well just make those points into the extra spell slots.

Sorcerer, as it stands now in 5e, NEEDS metamagic, or else it really wouldn't have any use to exist with the wizard, warlock, and bard around. Oh, and now also the artificer.
 

PsyzhranV2

Adventurer
@Undrave can't help but notices that wide circle you made around the point of the 5e wizard not having core mechanics that they bring to the table in meaningful fleshed out ways beyond the spell list copied by sorcerer & warlock. There have been a couple times in this thread where people have had to admit "well uhh.. tiny hut.. detect magic... some other super niche stuff like phantom steed" only after much cajoling to be specific & even then they needed to dress it up in flavorful text to obscure how empty the strawman of a mechanic they were inflating was rather than just listing the specifics.

If you don't like the parallels to past editions, perhaps you'd like to expound on the wizard's core class mechanics that really set it's duplicated spell list access apart from classes like warlock & sorcerer who effectively have all the meaningful portions of the wizard spell list and core class mechanics that shine. Be specific, don't just say "ritual magic, bigger spell list"... This thread has gone over those & nobody has been willing or able to admit what meaningful contribution those play at the table other than the occasional niche edge case

@Tony Vargas the sorcerer has a few wizard does not have, I made a list earlier. Enhance ability, daylight, dominate beast, & insect plague. I don't know if your none also includes cleric/warlock/bard/etc. Critically important to your "more unique spells" point is the fact that few if any (depending on your criteria for weighing them) are not the critical must have top shelf spells. If you click on that link there that says earlier you can see the last time someone tried to build an argument around those spells & they couldn't even do it without obfuscating the sprells behind descriptive text, maybe you are itching to do better?

@oreofox on those "wizards get eight" point, they took a core class mechanic & made it an archtype. Sorcerer's draconic bloodline is a bunch of feats & wild magic was a PrC that I sourced earlier. The wizard arcane toolbox was indeed "practically nonexistant" because the toolbox was those bonus feats and differences to how the int mod applied to various things. In short it was extensive. they took a portion of the core class that applied at level 1 rather than a feat grouping or PrC & made it into the vast majority of wizard archtypes then cut the rest including some of that core class stuff from the game
View attachment 118343
Stop with the 3.5e already.

This whole screed reads like the Wizard punching out all the Sorcerer's teeth while screaming "look what you made me do!"

How about this: what would be YOUR ideal Sorcerer under 5e mechanics?
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
If you can compile a definitive list of critical, must-have spells, that eat up most casters' known spells, the game has much bigger problems.
There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list. Rather than getting lost on an endless subjective debate over if a wizard should be a glass cannon, battlefield control, batman, etc & to what degrees... How about instead can you compile a list of top shelf spells in the much smaller handful of wizard specific spells not shared by sorcerer in the section of the spell list copied to sorcerer? There are only a handful of wizard spells each level that are not copied to the sorcerer list, it should be easy for some of the folks who keep pointing at the larger spell list to name the top shelf spells unique to wizards, oddly there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing so even though I've asked quite a few times in the thread
Hey mostly because I agree the Wizard has a bland identity and uninspiring class features (aside, again, for the Diviner and Abjurer's single speciality), but I just don't agree in blaming the Sorcerer for it basically. Plus, the Wizard is still strong, it's just bland.

Personally though, I think Ritual Magic is pretty cool and there just should have been more rituals and the Wizard should have had features to make them better at it than anybody else. It's a fun concept that doesn't feel fully realized.
It's not blaming the sorcerer to admit that one of the few things wizards could get from wizard bonus feats were given to sorcerers along with the vast majority of the wizard spell list and nothing was added to the core wizard chassis to make up for the removal of wizard bonus feats & how the int mod affected other parts of character creation because it leaves a giant void ripe for toe stomping in the wizard class. I'm not saying that sorcerer's should be nerfed or anything, just that they should have finished the wizard. With Fighter they realized those bonus feats at 1,2 , 4 6, 8, 10, 12, 14,16,18, & 20 were a critical component of the class so gave them some bonus feats after replacing some of them with core class features like second wind, action surge, fighting styles, indomidable, & so on... Problems came though because when it came to wizard they dropped the bonus feats without replacements & failed to replace the missing core class or int mod mechanics.

Yes I agree that ritual casting could have been a great thing that would really make a wizard shine in a role of it's own.. but they stopped when the cocktail napkin was full instead of fleshing it out with something to build a character around. We wouldn't even be discussing this & the thread probably never would have started if a wizard could mostly take a bunch of top shelf ritual spells not hamstrung by concentration that really made the party sit up & take notice regularly. Take out tiny hut & detect magic & the whole concept of ritual wizard spells pretty much falls in with the various ribbons


@PsyzhranV2 I'm not sure how you took away that impression from my post but whatever. There was talk earlier where someone suggested that the sorcerer should have looked more like the warlock & warlock different along with references to how the playtest had a version that played up the magical bloodline in ways that made it really lean into the magical creature theme in ways other than just "like a wizard but some extra toys & charisma". If your really interested in seeing how a sorcerer could have looked, you might want to go back & read or skim some of the posts from people discussing those things.


@tetrasodium The dragon bloodline subclass for the sorcerer is just the Dragon Disciple PrC from 3e. The wizard had its core mechanics expanded upon, same with the cleric (domains). What was the sorcerer's core mechanic from 3e? Spontaneous casting. But that's also part of the bard, and the bard gets other things. All classes in 5e can "cast spontaneously", stealing the sorcerer's schtick, only they can change their "spells known" every time they wake up from an 8 hour rest. Except the ranger, but they have more going for them than the sorcerer. If not for the metamagic, sorcerers would have practically no use for sorcery points except to make more spell slots. Very few of their subclass features use sorcery points. Take away metamagic, you may as well just make those points into the extra spell slots.

Sorcerer, as it stands now in 5e, NEEDS metamagic, or else it really wouldn't have any use to exist with the wizard, warlock, and bard around. Oh, and now also the artificer.
[/QUOTE]
I thought about the draconic bloodline, but it bears little resemblance to the 5e draconic bloodline. Races of the dragon 1.7 has the bloodline, but it bears little resemblance to the 5e sorcerer archtype... now some of the feats like those on page 104/105 are more than just similar.

As to your sorcerer's need metamagic point... I'm not sure why you & PsyzhranV2 seem to think that I'm saying that sorcerer should have metamagic removed by pointing out that it was something traditionally associated with various wizard builds because of those bonus feats, the fact that nothing was added for the bonus feat loss, or the fact that they used one of the few things remaining in the core wizard class's toolbox (school specialization) as fodder for archtypes is a morass of problematic considering so much of the spell list is copied to sorcerer
 

There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list.
As your own comparison very clearly illustrates, the wizard has far more spells that the sorcerer does not, than the sorcerer has spells that the wizard does not.

That's the opposite of the point you're trying to make, AFAICT.

How about instead can you compile a list of top shelf spells
I'm going to whistle past that particular graveyard, and not work from the assumption that spells are totally broken, and that, instead, spells of a given level are roughly in the same ballpark of value, by some inscrutable set of game design criteria, that someone at WotC understands, and with a substantial leavening of situationality obscuring it.

;)

it should be easy for some of the folks who keep pointing at the larger spell list to name the top shelf spells unique to wizards, oddly there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing so even though I've asked quite a few times in the thread
I can see why. The premise that there are top-shelf spells that render consideration of all other spells moot is a pretty damning condemnation of the whole game. I mean, this is a 5e discussion board, not a 5e hatchet-job board, right?

...and nothing was added to the core wizard chassis to make up for the removal of wizard bonus feats & how the int mod affected other parts of character creation...
Uh? The Sorcerer's Spontaneous casting? Free rituals? At-will cantrips? DC's scaling independent of spell level? Uninterruptable casting? d6 HD? Arcane recovery? School Specialization with no opposition schools?
I mean, casters in general got so much from 5e, it's hard to point to any one thing.

The dragon bloodline subclass for the sorcerer is just the Dragon Disciple PrC from 3e.
Well, and, y'know, the Dragon Sorcerer from 4e. The 4e Sorcerer, at introduction, had two builds - Dragon and Wild Magic. The 5e Sorcerer started with the same two bloodlines.

People have been yelling at you that you're comparing to 3.5, and it's true, there's something to be said for looking at the 4e->5e development. Not a lot, but something.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
and nothing was added to the core wizard chassis to make up for the removal of wizard bonus feats & how the int mod affected other parts of character creation because it leaves a giant void ripe for toe stomping in the wizard class. I'm not saying that sorcerer's should be nerfed or anything, just that they should have finished the wizard.
Keep in mind that the base for 5e wasn't 3rd edition. Everything was built from scratch, only paying attention to what felt "D&Dish". Under that process, bonus feats ended up not being core to the idea of a wizard, barely anybody paid attention to the loss of bonus feats during the playtest.
The fighter received bonus feats late in the game, call it convergent evolution if you want...

edit: also of none of the sorcerer subclasses - with exception of wild magic, but even then it was a kind of sorcerer in 4e- were ever wizard themes. Divine Soul is an evolution of 3e's many sorcerer like divine subclasses like mystic and favored soul, dragon magic comes in part from dragon disciple -a prestige class wizards couldn't qualify for-, but also from 4e's dragon magic sorcerer, Shadow magic is in part an evolution of the tome of magic shadowcaster combined with some of shadow dancer - plus pets-. Storm magic comes from 4e. All failed UA subclasses are the result of "which entry on the MM knocked up grandma?" exploration or wanting to fill the 4 elements in a fluffy way.
 
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Keep in mind that the base for 5e wasn't 3rd edition.
True.
It was 2e.
;)
Everything was built from scratch, only paying attention to what felt "D&Dish". Under that process, bonus feats ended up not being core to the idea of a wizard, barely anybody paid attention to the loss of bonus feats during the playtest.
Actually, an awful lot was lifted whole-cloth from prior eds. 5e's a bit of a Frankenstien, that way, just assembled from the corpses of brothers with remarkable family resemblance.

The fighter received bonus feats late in the game, call it convergent evolution if you want...
I'd call it catering to 3.x expectations.
 




tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
« Bonus feat » is a boring and lazy class feature anyway
Yea it's a shame they didn't look like a list like this & say hmm "maybe these ones are good inspiration" I'm sure if we started digging we could find at least one.. maybe even two feats that work similar to second wind/action surge/etc core fighter abilities granted on non-bonus feat levels that used to be bonus feat levels.
 
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