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5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
@tetrasodium

Let's look at a level 5 sorcerer and a level 5 wizard. Now I want you to fill the sorcerers list out with all the must have wizard spells he can take that you are talking about. Then I will pick those spells and spells the sorcerer doesn't have for the wizard. Let's see what you're missing out on.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I think the 5e wizard shouldn't have many of the things the 3.x wizard had. I think the 5e wizard is still plenty powerful enough and thematic enough without those things. Is that something we can all agree on?
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
Is it just me or does @tetrasodium's argument boils down to "wizards in 5e do not getting everything they did in 3.x and if they can't have those things then no one can"
if you deliberately ignore large parts of it sure. the spell list is the same on almost every meaningful level. The core class features are out to lunch & classes with what is largely the same spell list bring significant class specific toys to the table on top of their archtype specific ones. Wizards have a spellbook, a half finished ritual soellbook, and mostly late game archtype features to set them apart from classes with most of the same spells.


I think the 5e wizard shouldn't have many of the things the 3.x wizard had. I think the 5e wizard is still plenty powerful enough and thematic enough without those things. Is that something we can all agree on?
"Many" is a poor choice of words in this case because it's an imprecise undefined number used in a subjective context. every bonus feat it had in 3.5? probably not, some of the later ones are archtype features. one or two in the core class?... yea... definitely so. Somewhere in between like fighters ?... Yea strong maybe or even possibly depending on if wotc ever plans to finish fleshing out ritual spells beyond their notes on a cocktail napkin made during lunch status & to what extent/direction.

as to your other question...
There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list. Rather than getting lost on an endless subjective debate over if a wizard should be a glass cannon, battlefield control, batman, etc & to what degrees... How about instead can you compile a list of top shelf spells in the much smaller handful of wizard specific spells not shared by sorcerer in the section of the spell list copied to sorcerer? There are only a handful of wizard spells each level that are not copied to the sorcerer list, it should be easy for some of the folks who keep pointing at the larger spell list to name the top shelf spells unique to wizards, oddly there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing so even though I've asked quite a few times in the thread
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
My list of top couple of tier spells the Wizard gets that the Sorcerer doesn't at level 5:

1st - Find Familiar, Tasha's, Fog Cloud
2nd - Nothing key
3rd - Leomund's Tiny Hut, Animate Dead

And that's it. Nothing I'd really miss in a pinch except maybe Find Familiar.
 

There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list.
There really, really is. Because the wizard has way more spells not on the Sorcerer list than the Sorcerer has spells not on the Wizard's list. There are 93 spells the wizard gets that the Sorcerer does not, just in the PH.
Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Sending
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Stone Shape
Bigby's Hand
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Dream
Geas
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Wall of Force
Contingency
Create Undead
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Wall of Ice
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Feeblemind
Maze
Mind Blank
Telepathy
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Weird
The Sorcerer has 7 spells not shared with the Wizard.
Enhance Ability
Daylight
Water Walk
Dominate Beast
Insect Plague
Fire Storm
Earthquake
93 > 7 objective fact.

It's the Sorcerer that's hurting in that comparison.


Do we have to get Charlie Sheen in here to ask the Wizard "How many yachts can you water-ski behind?"
Because that sounds like the point you're actually making.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
There really, really is. Because the wizard has way more spells not on the Sorcerer list than the Sorcerer has spells not on the Wizard's list. There are 93 spells the wizard gets that the Sorcerer does not, just in the PH.
Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Sending
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Stone Shape
Bigby's Hand
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Dream
Geas
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Wall of Force
Contingency
Create Undead
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Wall of Ice
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Feeblemind
Maze
Mind Blank
Telepathy
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Weird
The Sorcerer has 7 spells not shared with the Wizard.
Enhance Ability
Daylight
Water Walk
Dominate Beast
Insect Plague
Fire Storm
Earthquake
93 > 7 objective fact.

It's the Sorcerer that's hurting in that comparison.

Do we have to get Charlie Sheen in here to ask the Wizard "How many yachts can you water-ski behind?"
Because that sounds like the point you're actually making.
And this would be why I play Wizards and not Sorcerers. It's the spells know and overall utility difference, not the presence or absence of top tier spells. I love the idea of metamagic, but I really don't like the spells know restrictions.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
@tetrasodium Ok, let's assume that 47% of the wizard list is completely useless and might as well not be there. You also say that wizard has a poorer casting stat, that Arcana in the sorcerer infringes too much on the wizard niche, and that it has stolen both most of the wizard good mechanics and all of the interesting themes. Also that the mechanical overlap is collectively so much that you can't distinguish them in play and sorcerer is wizard plus because of this.

The only solution I can think of is to well:

Sorcerous Origin: Wizardry

Not all sorcerers are uneducated and illiterate. Many are born with just a humble spark that needs to be harnessed, controlled and nurtured through tireless study under the guide of a mentor. These sorcerers are known as wizards.

1st Level
Academy learning
You gain training in Arcana, History, Religion and Medicine. You also gain expertise in one of these skills.

Wizardry
Through you studies you have untapped the possibility of manipulating your own magic. However the details are long and hard to remember.
Pick a school of magic, you gain a spell book which contains a number of first level spells of that school equal to 1+ your intelligence modifier. You can choose one of the spells in your book and add it to your spells known until you finish a long rest. You also learn two first level rituals of your choice and write them in your spellbook. If you find a scroll or a spellbook with spells of your chosen school or rituals of a level you can cast, you can copy them to your book at the cost of 50gp per spell level.

6th level
Weave Manipulation
When you cast a spell from your chosen school that requires a saving throw, you can spend 2 sorcery points to add your intelligence modifier to the spell DC of that spell.

14th level
Improved Wizardry
Starting at 14th level, you can now prepare a number of spells from your spellbook equal to you intelligence modifier.

18th level
Arcane recovery
When the target of a spell you cast from your chosen school fails its saving throw, you recover sorcery points equal to that spell's level. You need to complete a long rest before you use this ability again.

And we forget the wizard class?
 

SkidAce

Hero
Supporter
Unique Sorcerer powers fueled off Sorcery Points is my preferred method. So, an emphatic yes to unique Sorc Powers, but do not make them spells.

People will still try to optimize, but Sorcery Point gain is at a slow rate, and I think in some ways will inhibit multiclassing as the multi-class spell casting rules will not impact Sorcery Points.
I like this idea.
 


Minigiant

Legend
While I was at work in a meeting I was pondering these ideas for sorcerer

  1. Remove all current sorcerer damage cantrips
  2. Create new damage cantrips that emphasis raw magic. Possibly convert old 4e sorcerer cantrips
  3. Remove Metamagic
  4. At 3rd, 10th, and 17th levels, Sorcerers get 1 Source of Sorcery .
    1. Aura of Raw Magic: Glow in a 20ft bright light that gives you resistance to "elemental" damage for 5 turns per sorcery point spent.
    2. Arcane Wellspring: Gain sorcery points equal to your Charisma modifier
    3. Brainblast Spend 2 sorcery points to gain Proficiency with skill for one Ability Check
    4. Essence of Magic: Spend a sorcery point to automatically succeed concentration
    5. Primordial Boon. Spend a sorcery point to use Charisma for single any Ability check.
    6. Mind over Magic: Spend sorcery point equal a spell level when casting a spell. You no longer need to concentrate to maintain it
    7. Reckless Cast. Reckless Attack but only for attack from spells
    8. Rip from the Heavens: Choose a cleric domain. You can cast spells from that domain with sorcery points
    9. Sorcerous Surge. Action Surge but only to cast spells
    10. Wrath of Arcane Blood: Use an action and 1 sorcery point to fire a 60ft range bolt to deals 1d12 damage. Spend more sorcery points for more damage and range.

stuff like that.
 


tetrasodium

Adventurer
Supporter
There really, really is. Because the wizard has way more spells not on the Sorcerer list than the Sorcerer has spells not on the Wizard's list. There are 93 spells the wizard gets that the Sorcerer does not, just in the PH.
Alarm
Find Familiar
Grease
Identify
Illusory Script
Longstrider
Protection from Evil and Good
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Arcane Lock
Continual Flame
Flaming Sphere
Gentle Repose
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Melf's Acid Arrow
Nystul's Magic Aura
Ray of Enfeeblement
Rope Trick
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Feign Death
Glyph of Warding
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Magic Circle
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Remove Curse
Sending
Vampiric Touch
Arcane Eye
Conjure Minor Elementals
Control Water
Evard's Black Tentacles
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Phantasmal Killer
Stone Shape
Bigby's Hand
Conjure Elemental
Contact Other Plane
Dream
Geas
Legend Lore
Mislead
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Scrying
Wall of Force
Contingency
Create Undead
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Flesh to Stone
Guards and Wards
Magic Jar
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Programmed Illusion
Wall of Ice
Forcecage
Mirage Arcane
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mordenkainen's Sword
Project Image
Sequester
Simulacrum
Symbol
Antimagic Field
Antipathy/Sympathy
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Feeblemind
Maze
Mind Blank
Telepathy
Astral Projection
Foresight
Imprisonment
Prismatic Wall
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Weird
The Sorcerer has 7 spells not shared with the Wizard.
Enhance Ability
Daylight
Water Walk
Dominate Beast
Insect Plague
Fire Storm
Earthquake
93 > 7 objective fact.

It's the Sorcerer that's hurting in that comparison.


Do we have to get Charlie Sheen in here to ask the Wizard "How many yachts can you water-ski behind?"
Because that sounds like the point you're actually making.
I'm not the one who brought up the larger spell list, in fact I pointed out that too much of it is shared and listed the spells, however again you do your best to avoid details that cause so much of your argument to crumble. A while back Wotc/dndbeyond released some statistics on levels of actual characters that get played. 93 certainly sounds like a massive & impressive number.... except
1581559032240.png

earlier I covered the spells level 1-5 that wizard alone has & noted that most campaigns end by then so continuing on 6th-9th was silly, but again you are yammering on that number across all levels. Here are the35 spells unique to wizard from levels 6-9. That amounts to character level 11 to 20...or.... nine percent of all campaigns.. but 16 of those spells will only be seen by two percent of campaigns with the remaining 19 only seen by six percent of campaigns. Your argument about 93 spells unique to wizard holds roughly the same weight as people who point at the moon druid level 20 capstone & cry OP.

While you & a few others froth at the mouth about things like the number 93 when most are only seen in a tiny fraction of games, you ignore the fact that even among the levels where seventy percent of games play in there is well... not much across those 28 spells. The first person in this thread named off five spells as being "top couple tier" out of those 93 spells you keep shouting about....

do you want to try again but this time make an argument rooted in parts of the game relevant to something more like a significant percentage of campaigns? If that's too difficult maybe even limit yourself to arguments that are relevant to more than a tiny fraction of them?

edit: here are 6-9th level spells unique to wizard. There are some nice ones sure, but only nine percent of campaigns will ever even get to the 6th level spells & it drops fast the percent who will continue
9th level
Astral Projection, Foresight, Imprisonment, Prismatic Wall, Shape Change, True Polymorph
Weird
8th Level
Antimagic Field, Antipathy/Sympathy, Clone, Control Weather, Demiplane, Feeblemind, Maze, Mindblank, Power Word Stun, Telepathy, Trap the Soul
7th Level
Force Cage, Mirage Arcane, Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen's Sword, Project Image, Sequester, Simulacrum, Symbol
6th Level
Contingency, Create Undead, Instant Summons, Flesh to Stone, Guards & wards, Magic Jar, Freezing Sphere, Irresistable Dance, Programmed Illusion
 
Last edited:

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I think the 5e wizard shouldn't have many of the things the 3.x wizard had. I think the 5e wizard is still plenty powerful enough and thematic enough without those things. Is that something we can all agree on?
In the end is the flavor, theme and roles the community picked and the designers worked on for over two years. The designers wanted something more generic, but the wizard iconicity won in the end. If the wizard is incomplete, then no class is truly complete. Sadly it seems that whatever you and I say will only fall on deaf ears.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Is it by any chance possible to have this conversation about a fun game of make-believe without allusions to domestic violence?
Hmmm, I've not seen a single person do that. So yes! It's certainly possible and this thread is proof of that.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Hmmm, I've not seen a single person do that. So yes! It's certainly possible and this thread is proof of that.
I think this is the particular quote
This whole screed reads like the Wizard punching out all the Sorcerer's teeth while screaming "look what you made me do!"
Nothing out of the ordinary, but I get the feeling I'm not the only one that codes the wiz male and the sor female. (I blame it sounding so close to soror-sister)
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
@tetrasodium

Wizard Spells known at level 5 vs Sorcerer spells known at level 5

1581565987273.png


I think this comparison speaks for itself.

Also, notice how I only needed to use 1 spell on the exclusive wizard list to make a really outstanding wizard list, but the sorcerer even without that spell can barely take enough spells to cover the combat pillar.

Edit: Updated list due to error on level 3 spells known by wizard.
 

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cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
@tetrasodium

Wizard Spells known at level 5 vs Sorcerer spells known at level 5

View attachment 118350

I think this comparison speaks for itself.

Also, notice how I only needed to use 1 spell on the exclusive wizard list to make a really outstanding wizard list, but the sorcerer even without that spell can barely take enough spells to cover the combat pillar.
Where is the list from? If it's just one you made up then I'm not sure it's really saying anything. Also, since it looks like you're only looking at the spells chosen as the wizard levels up, they should only know 2 3rd level spells at most at level 5.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Where is the list from? If it's just one you made up then I'm not sure it's really saying anything. Also, since it looks like you're only looking at the spells chosen as the wizard levels up, they should only know 2 3rd level spells at most at level 5.
You are correct. An oversight on my part.
 


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