On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
The guy has been asking us for a list of wizard spells to compare with sorcerer spells. I figured I'd oblige.
Got it, some of the posts in this thread are a little long instead of being to the point (we've all written those posts) so I sometimes miss things amongst the waffle.
 

teitan

Adventurer
You could merge the warlock and the sorcerer. Any Patron could be an Origin, and vice versa.
I don't know, I think that the Warlock fills a unique niche like the Sorceror does. It's a much better emulator of Elric of Melnibone than the Sorceror or Wizard. Elric gets his power from his pact with the Lords of Chaos and uses ritual magic.
 
My list of top couple of tier spells the Wizard gets that the Sorcerer doesn't at level 5:

1st - Find Familiar, Tasha's, Fog Cloud
2nd - Nothing key
3rd - Leomund's Tiny Hut, Animate Dead

And that's it. Nothing I'd really miss in a pinch except maybe Find Familiar.
The issue I have is that his notion is the wizard must know only spells from his unique spells.

Consider that a sorcerer will only ever have nearly half of the wizards spells known. Any spell known from the wizard list beyond that number of sorcerer spells is a spell a particular sorcerer is incapable of knowing - whether it's on the sorcerer list or not.

In other words, a wizard with the same X spells as the sorcerer will still play much differently than the sorcerer because he knows another Y spells, some of which will be more useful than anything the sorcerer has in certain situations.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
@tetrasodium

Wizard Spells known at level 5 vs Sorcerer spells known at level 5

View attachment 118351

I think this comparison speaks for itself.

Also, notice how I only needed to use 1 spell on the exclusive wizard list to make a really outstanding wizard list, but the sorcerer even without that spell can barely take enough spells to cover the combat pillar.

Edit: Updated list due to error on level 3 spells known by wizard.
I'm not sure what specifically you'r trying to prove with "spells known" since wizard does not "know spells" unless you are trying to suggest that this hypothetical 5th level wizard somehow has an intelligence of 28(+9) at level 5 in order to prepare level+9 spells?
1581571280683.png

but congratulations, you answered your own question & pretended that I asked said question with a rather random l yet meaningless list. Both will gave 4/4/3/2 spell slots & there is a lot of overlap during combat, the wizard is apparently managed to max out intelligence at 20 by level 5 & obtain a +8 intel epic boon/magic item to prepare 15 spells at level 5. None of those spells on either list are ritual & all of them are from the level range wotc started or finished creating ritual spells for& collecting the expected ones for the group at those levels tends to put a severe strain on the wizard's spell selection unless they get reallly lucky to find a spellbook with some... The fact that this wizard has not found any spellbooks at level 5 is not particularly unusual but odd considering the apparent romantic relations going on, but it wouldn't be uncommon to find scrolls not worth/not capable of scribing. The sorcerer knows one more cantrip from the same selection of cantrips available to the wizard. The sorcerer knows six spells but the wizard is dating the GM and engaging in erotic acts with their SO during game without scaring off the sorcerer & other players?

On a serious note though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though & say that you are trying to show that the wizard spellbook can contain more spells, that was never something debated though. Spells in a spellbook only matter if they are prepared or ritual but none of those are ritual & you didn't mention the int mod on the hypothetical wizard. At level 5 the sorcerer also has the level 1 benefits of their sorcerous origin, font of magic/flexible casting, & metamagic. You included mage armor, so we can assume this sorcerer is not a draconic bloodline? Both will probably be mostly casting the same spells, although it's rare that sleep>thunderwave is a good teamwork combo. by ten I'd expect the wizard to have all the ritual spells expected & the sorcerer will have made significant strides in bridging the spells known/spells prepped & regularly used gap.

TL;DR I have no idea what you are trying to prove my attributing the source of your own bizarre question to me, so all I can do is put my tongue firmly in my confused cheek & joke about it.
 
I'm not sure what specifically you'r trying to prove with "spells known" since wizard does not "know spells" unless you are trying to suggest that this hypothetical 5th level wizard somehow has an intelligence of 28(+9) at level 5 in order to prepare level+9 spells?
View attachment 118352
but congratulations, you answered your own question & pretended that I asked said question with a rather random l yet meaningless list. Both will gave 4/4/3/2 spell slots & there is a lot of overlap during combat, the wizard is apparently managed to max out intelligence at 20 by level 5 & obtain a +8 intel epic boon/magic item to prepare 15 spells at level 5. None of those spells on either list are ritual & all of them are from the level range wotc started or finished creating ritual spells for& collecting the expected ones for the group at those levels tends to put a severe strain on the wizard's spell selection unless they get reallly lucky to find a spellbook with some... The fact that this wizard has not found any spellbooks at level 5 is not particularly unusual but odd considering the apparent romantic relations going on, but it wouldn't be uncommon to find scrolls not worth/not capable of scribing. The sorcerer knows one more cantrip from the same selection of cantrips available to the wizard. The sorcerer knows six spells but the wizard is dating the GM and engaging in erotic acts with their SO during game without scaring off the sorcerer & other players?

On a serious note though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though & say that you are trying to show that the wizard spellbook can contain more spells, that was never something debated though. Spells in a spellbook only matter if they are prepared or ritual but none of those are ritual & you didn't mention the int mod on the hypothetical wizard. At level 5 the sorcerer also has the level 1 benefits of their sorcerous origin, font of magic/flexible casting, & metamagic. You included mage armor, so we can assume this sorcerer is not a draconic bloodline? Both will probably be mostly casting the same spells, although it's rare that sleep>thunderwave is a good teamwork combo. by ten I'd expect the wizard to have all the ritual spells expected & the sorcerer will have made significant strides in bridging the spells known/spells prepped & regularly used gap.

TL;DR I have no idea what you are trying to prove my attributing the source of your own bizarre question to me, so all I can do is put my tongue firmly in my confused cheek & joke about it.
You do realize you've been asking for a list of what wizard spells that a particular wizard would take that a sorcerer could not. I just provided you the list and now you're claiming you never asked for such a thing?

PHB 114
LEARNING SPELLS OF 1ST LEVEL AND HIGHER
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook

Wizards will know 14 spells by level 5. They will be able to prepare 9 of those 14.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
The issue I have is that his notion is the wizard must know only spells from his unique spells.

Consider that a sorcerer will only ever have nearly half of the wizards spells known. Any spell known from the wizard list beyond that number of sorcerer spells is a spell a particular sorcerer is incapable of knowing - whether it's on the sorcerer list or not.

In other words, a wizard with the same X spells as the sorcerer will still play much differently than the sorcerer because he knows another Y spells, some of which will be more useful than anything the sorcerer has in certain situations.
On that bolded but, not at all... but if people are going to throw our "Larger spell list!! 93 unique spells!!!" it's relevant to ask how many of them they believe are spells realistically likely to wind up on actual prepared spell lists for regular use because quite a few of them are niche, kinda redundant, or just massively overshadowed by other spells of the same level that are shared across spell lists

You do realize you've been asking for a list of what wizard spells that a particular wizard would take that a sorcerer could not. I just provided you the list and now you're claiming you never asked for such a thing?

PHB 114
LEARNING SPELLS OF 1ST LEVEL AND HIGHER
Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook

Wizards will know 14 spells by level 5. They will be able to prepare 9 of those 14.
I've asked for a lot of things, that is not one. It is late in muh of the US at least, perhaps you are confusing your question with the many times I've asked people citing "bigger spell list" & "93 spells" to list off which of them that they think are top shelf spells?
 

Todd Roybark

Adventurer
Long Post-Responses to Multiple points

Wow..so much for the peaceful detente that happened around page 14. 😀

A sorcerer is an Artisanal caster, with a non algorithmically selected set of themed spells.
The Wizard is the big box store of spells.

The quote of mine that Moonsong used at the very beginning of this thread was in direct response to the idea of increasing the Sorcerers’ spell list, and spells known.

(& to be honest I allow a 1st level Sorcerer to have 3 spells known instead of 2)

As Undrave, so rightfully stated earlier, the big spell list is the 5e Wizards shtick with little else in the class to represent flavor or personality.

So Increasing the Sorcerer spell list, Increasing Sorcerer spells known, Increasing the versatility of Font of Magic to allow for cool effects like THP, and essentially bonus spells.....all of these together, is a bridge too far for me, and makes the Sorcerer supreme, ( and not like Dr. Strange).

If the Sorcerer gets all of the above, then the Wizard should get something big for the sake of equality, like the ability to Concentrate on two spells at a time.

High Intelligence used to be useful, either in learning extra languages ( alleviating the need to take Comp Lang in 1e), or in 3e, high INT gave skill points.

5e gives you nothing for a High INT. If the wizard is supposed to be educated
Only a Scholar” as FrogReaver insists, shouldn’t that education be mechanically represented?

If the Wizard spell list length is the way 5e mechanically represents “the scholar”...then no spell list increase for the Sorc is warranted, without some other compensation for the Wiz.

As it stands now, I personally think the Wizard should have 3 Skill Points, automatic proficiency in the near useless Calligraphy tool, and the ability to get Expertise in Arcana.

An 8 INT Cleric of Knowledge with 1 level of Ranger with Favored Enemy Devils can out sage any Wizard in Descent to Avernus thru Expertise and Advantage on INT/WIS checks against Devils.

CHA is a way better stat than INT in 5e. Every Wizard I have seen in 5e has Charm Person selected. A sorcerer with their high CHA does not need the spell. Same could be said for the Disguise Self spell, especially if Prof. w/ the Disguise kit is had.
A CHA (Intimidate) check can replicate, ( in limited fashion), one of the Fear spells etc.

The value of CHA ability checks to bypass the need to use spells is not being properly evaluated in this thread. (My points excepted, of course 😉).

As for what the Wizard class has lost- here are just some of things not mentioned yet:

1- Wizards used to be the only class with 8th or 9th level spells.
2 - Wizards used to have 2 Ninth level spell slots at Capstone Levels.
3- The Origins of Metamagic goes back to 1e through the Extension line of M/U spells.

Metamagic spells in 2e were Wizard spells, with limited access granted to some cool, but odd and not commonly used Priestly Spheres.

As has been pointed out Metamagic was not the Sorcerer shtick in 3e.
Suddenly, now in 5e, Metamagic is the best way to represent the soul of the class in 5e.
Yet, at the creation of the Sorcerer class, metamagic was intentionally designed to be a SUBPAR option for the Sorc.

(Predicted response from others: Now everyone is a spontaneous caster...yada, yada 👼)

4- The Paradigm shift that has happened in imagination due to the sorcerer class being ‘split’ from the wizard.

For proof of this:

The fictional character Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, self described in the book series as a wizard, is spec’d in D&D mechanics as a Sorcerer, by appreciative fans of the books in this thread.

🎤+ Drop.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Long Post-Responses to Multiple points

Wow..so much for the peaceful detente that happened around page 14. 😀

A sorcerer is an Artisanal caster, with a non algorithmically selected set of themed spells.
The Wizard is the big box store of spells.

The quote of mine that Moonsong used at the very beginning of this thread was in direct response to the idea of increasing the Sorcerers’ spell list, and spells known.

(& to be honest I allow a 1st level Sorcerer to have 3 spells known instead of 2)

As Undrave, so rightfully stated earlier, the big spell list is the 5e Wizards shtick with little else in the class to represent flavor or personality.

So Increasing the Sorcerer spell list, Increasing Sorcerer spells known, Increasing the versatility of Font of Magic to allow for cool effects like THP, and essentially bonus spells.....all of these together, is a bridge too far for me, and makes the Sorcerer supreme, ( and not like Dr. Strange).

If the Sorcerer gets all of the above, then the Wizard should get something big for the sake of equality, like the ability to Concentrate on two spells at a time.

High Intelligence used to be useful, either in learning extra languages ( alleviating the need to take Comp Lang in 1e), or in 3e, high INT gave skill points.

5e gives you nothing for a High INT. If the wizard is supposed to be educated
Only a Scholar” as FrogReaver insists, shouldn’t that education be mechanically represented?

If the Wizard spell list length is the way 5e mechanically represents “the scholar”...then no spell list increase for the Sorc is warranted, without some other compensation for the Wiz.

As it stands now, I personally think the Wizard should have 3 Skill Points, automatic proficiency in the near useless Calligraphy tool, and the ability to get Expertise in Arcana.

An 8 INT Cleric of Knowledge with 1 level of Ranger with Favored Enemy Devils can out sage any Wizard in Descent to Avernus thru Expertise and Advantage on INT/WIS checks against Devils.

CHA is a way better stat than INT in 5e. Every Wizard I have seen in 5e has Charm Person selected. A sorcerer with their high CHA does not need the spell. Same could be said for the Disguise Self spell, especially if Prof. w/ the Disguise kit is had.
A CHA (Intimidate) check can replicate, ( in limited fashion), one of the Fear spells etc.

The value of CHA ability checks to bypass the need to use spells is not being properly evaluated in this thread. (My points excepted, of course 😉).

As for what the Wizard class has lost- here are just some of things not mentioned yet:

1- Wizards used to be the only class with 8th or 9th level spells.
2 - Wizards used to have 2 Ninth level spell slots at Capstone Levels.
3- The Origins of Metamagic goes back to 1e through the Extension line of M/U spells.

Metamagic spells in 2e were Wizard spells, with limited access granted to some cool, but odd and not commonly used Priestly Spheres.

As has been pointed out Metamagic was not the Sorcerer shtick in 3e.
Suddenly, now in 5e, Metamagic is the best way to represent the soul of the class in 5e.
Yet, at the creation of the Sorcerer class, metamagic was intentionally designed to be a SUBPAR option for the Sorc.

(Predicted response from others: Now everyone is a spontaneous caster...yada, yada 👼)

4- The Paradigm shift that has happened in imagination due to the sorcerer class being ‘split’ from the wizard.

For proof of this:

The fictional character Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, self described in the book series as a wizard, is spec’d in D&D mechanics as a Sorcerer, by appreciative fans of the books in this thread.

🎤+ Drop.
I think I kinda remembered that part about metamagic being spells in 2e. However it has only been in core in 3x, and is wasn't considered core enough to survive the playtest. As I said a few pages back, Metamagic was removed from the playtest halfway and nobody noticed nor cared at the time. And given the power level of all/most casters, it would have likely stayed gone without anybody noticing nor caring. I hold the idea that the only reason metamagic made it into the game is because sorcerer exists in the game, and people only noticed it because sorcerers can't ever get anything nice without everybody else wanting it too.

Now, at least personally, wanting more spells in the spell list and more spells known is not too much to ask. More spells known means more like warlock levels of spells known, so there's less pressure to optimize and sorcerers get to be more unique. And more spells in the spell list, something as little as "let the dragon sorcerer actually turn into a dragon and allow every sorcerer to have a familiar" would be fantastic. It doesn't mean "Yeah sorcerer has to have every single wizard spell and know all the spells".

Edit: And the distinction predates sorcerer existing -I still hold nothing was separated from wizard, though a cas can be made for warlock being split from wizard-. Just because the class is called wizard, it doesn't mean it is synnonimus with what most people call wizard. Fans stat Harry as a sorcerer because that is the most accurate representation. Or tell me, would you stat Elsa as a warlock or wizard?
 
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Warlocks and Sorcerer's get very similar numbers of spells known out of the base class. The biggest difference there, IMO, is the presence in the Warlock subclasses of the Patron spells. My preference would be to give Sorcerers a similar list based on their origin, as WotC has done in a couple of UAs anyway. Giving the Sorcerer access to the small number of quality spells they don't currently get but that Wizard's do seems like too big an ask. Giving them access to more utility spells though - stuff they wouldn't normally spend a precious known slot on, seems like a great idea.

Here's the question - if the answer was more utility spells, but no find familiar, no Tiny Hut, etc, are the Sorcerer fans going to be happy?
 
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Warlocks and Sorcerer's get very similar numbers of spells known out of the base class. The biggest difference their, IMO, is the presence in the Warlock subclasses of the Patron spells. My preference would be to give Sorcerers a similar list based on their origin, as WotC has done in a couple of UAs anyway. Giving the Sorcerer access to the small number of quality spells they don't currently get but that Wizard's do seems like too big an ask. Giving them access to more utility spells though - stuff they wouldn't normally spend a precious known slot on, seems like a great idea.

Here's the question - if the answer was more utility spells, but no find familiar, no Tiny Hut, etc, are the Sorcerer fans going to be happy?
The extra spells could well be spells on the sorcerer list that the sorcerer would be likely to take anyway, since that frees up slots to learn some more situational spells.

I don't think there is any need to say "they must all be awesome wizard spells" or "the must all be utility spells", or whatever - just mix it up to suit the theme.
 

houser2112

Explorer
As has been pointed out Metamagic was not the Sorcerer shtick in 3e.
I would dispute this. Granted, any spellcaster could use metamagic, but I think only a spontaneous caster could truly take advantage of metamagic to meet immediate tactical needs. Who has the foresight to know when you're going to be bound and gagged, for instance?

Or tell me, would you stat Elsa as a warlock or wizard?
To me, it's quite obvious she's a sorcerer, due to her being not particularly scholarly (and having her abilities beginning at an age where she could probably barely read), the very tight focus of her abilities, and the lack of an obvious external source of her power.
 
The number of top tier spells in question is maybe 5 out of the 93 in question - Find Familiar and Tiny Hut being the two sky blue spells off that small list. I don't see any reason to give the sorcerer either of those. It seem far more in keeping with the class to give them a solid list of useful spells that match their bloodline, maybe a total of 6 or 8 spells, which is big leap in spells known and also helps keep the bloodlines unique and flavorful.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Warlocks and Sorcerer's get very similar numbers of spells known out of the base class. The biggest difference their, IMO, is the presence in the Warlock subclasses of the Patron spells. My preference would be to give Sorcerers a similar list based on their origin, as WotC has done in a couple of UAs anyway. Giving the Sorcerer access to the small number of quality spells they don't currently get but that Wizard's do seems like too big an ask. Giving them access to more utility spells though - stuff they wouldn't normally spend a precious known slot on, seems like a great idea.

Here's the question - if the answer was more utility spells, but no find familiar, no Tiny Hut, etc, are the Sorcerer fans going to be happy?
There's a confusion here. Warlock patron spells are spell list expansions not directly added to spells know. However the 'Daily' slots come each with a spell known. So they get 19 spells known total as a baseline not 15.
So basically some breathing room. A mix of missing thematic spells and utility and enough spells known to actually cast them. Though I still miss familiars, these spells don't need to come from the wizard list.
 
Yup, that's correct. I blame my lack of a second coffee. I'd still be fine bumping the sorcerer spells known though. Not so much the actual spell slots per day mind you, but spells known, sure.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Yup, that's correct. I blame my lack of a second coffee. I'd still be fine bumping the sorcerer spells known though. Not so much the actual spell slots per day mind you, but spells known, sure.
Yes, an extra at first, third and fifth, and a couple more at 18, 19, and 20. Currently only Storm sorcs have a reason to go to 18, and the capstone is very underwhelming taking into account three levels of warlock early on get the same effect, and give more spells known, more cnatrips and two invocations, all of it early on in the campaign.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
I think I kinda remembered that part about metamagic being spells in 2e. However it has only been in core in 3x, and is wasn't considered core enough to survive the playtest. As I said a few pages back, Metamagic was removed from the playtest halfway and nobody noticed nor cared at the time. And given the power level of all/most casters, it would have likely stayed gone without anybody noticing nor caring. I hold the idea that the only reason metamagic made it into the game is because sorcerer exists in the game, and people only noticed it because sorcerers can't ever get anything nice without everybody else wanting it too.

Now, at least personally, wanting more spells in the spell list and more spells known is not too much to ask. More spells known means more like warlock levels of spells known, so there's less pressure to optimize and sorcerers get to be more unique. And more spells in the spell list, something as little as "let the dragon sorcerer actually turn into a dragon and allow every sorcerer to have a familiar" would be fantastic. It doesn't mean "Yeah sorcerer has to have every single wizard spell and know all the spells".

Edit: And the distinction predates sorcerer existing -I still hold nothing was separated from wizard, though a cas can be made for warlock being split from wizard-. Just because the class is called wizard, it doesn't mean it is synnonimus with what most people call wizard. Fans stat Harry as a sorcerer because that is the most accurate representation. Or tell me, would you stat Elsa as a warlock or wizard?
Uhh no... they stat him as a wizard because he is and I can objective prove it, sorcerer in dresdenverse is something else that coincidentally is much closer to the sorcerer with their lack of wizardly training.

Sorcerer...
1581607355993.png
1581607656628.png
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I've asked people citing "bigger spell list" & "93 spells" to list off which of them that they think are top shelf spells?
You claimed that, objectively, the Sorcerer had most of the Wizard's spells. The reverse is objectively true, the Wizard has virtually all the Sorcerer's spells, and many more, besides.
As for your opinion that 5e spell-casting is a solved game, with only a handful of spells that mean anything, I refuse to accept or engage with it.
 

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