D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[Minigiant]

3e edition had racial paragon classes where you'd be the elfiest elf or gnomest gnome or the Pinnacle of raw humanity. Races like elves and gnomes would be casters whereas races like halfings and humans would increase their skills.

I could this as a hook for some races to become sorcerers. Channeling back to their older magical roots.

It also could help build an archetype D&D was always missing. A class who increases racial abilities that isnt just more spells

Finally we would get to play a half orc evolving into a super orc.

 

[Aldarc]

"a wizard but spontaneous casting plus some other improvements minus a spellbook" is not a niche either, it's a munchkin's take on wizard

Interesting. I thought that the munchkin's take on the wizard was the 5e wizard that was far less restricted by its spell preparation, can spontaneously cast prepared spells, gets ritual spells that frees up even more spell slots for casting, can get more spell slots back, and is no longer restricted in their spell selection by their tradition of choice.

 

[tetrasodium]

Interesting. I thought that the munchkin's take on the wizard was the 5e wizard that was far less restricted by its spell preparation, can spontaneously cast prepared spells, gets ritual spells that frees up even more spell slots for casting, can get more spell slots back, and is no longer restricted in their spell selection by their tradition of choice.

a sorcerer is considered to have all of their spells known prepared at all times, you are just complaining that they know less spells than prepared classes on that point. There's also the fact that it doesn't take a 12 dimensional chess champion to forsee the kind of arguments wasting one level of warlock on any other caster leads to

As to your complaint about wizard schools no longer excluding other schools, it facts a couple problems. Firstly the fact that sorcerer's have virtually the entire wizard spell list to choose from with no restrictions due to their all important "theme". Second is the fact that the wizard archtypes themselves are severely limited because of sorcerer sucking out so much of the wizard's designspace box rather than building mechanics to support the "theme" of a sorcerer as something other than wizard but extras. Finally there is the fact that there is no generalist wizard option either.

 

[Aldarc]

As to your complaint about wizard schools no longer excluding other schools, it facts a couple problems. Firstly the fact that sorcerer's have virtually the entire wizard spell list to choose from with no restrictions due to their all important "theme". Second is the fact that the wizard archtypes themselves are severely limited because of sorcerer sucking out so much of the wizard's designspace box rather than building mechanics to support the "theme" of a sorcerer as something other than wizard but extras. Finally there is the fact that there is no generalist wizard option either.

Achso! So you are in fact a wizard player complaining about sorcerers having nice things!

 

[SkidAce]

This is not a "pair"
Arcana. Your Intelligence (Arcana) check measures your ability to recall lore about spells, magic items, eldritch symbols, magical traditions, the planes of existence, and the inhabitants of those planes.

you could make an argument for wisdom applying there, but not charisma & not dna. That doesn't even get into the massive overlap in spell lists. Paladin/cleric & Ranger/Druid have some overlap, but not so much that they effectively play almost the same. Why is arcana even on the sorcerer skill choice options instead of a wizard class feature or something?

Actually, before the sorcerer arrived, there were many settings and characters, and stories in books, where the "wizard" had to have been born with the spark of magic.

And then they had to be taught to use it. So wizards can/could have it in their "DNA" in lore.

At least in one of our older campaigns.

 

[tetrasodium]

Achso! So you are in fact a wizard player complaining about sorcerers having nice things!

I said it earlier that I'm almost exclusively a gm & find it a bug problem at my tables to have a sorcerer and wizard at the table together because the sorcerer lacks any distinct role of its own, the same spell list as wizard, a claim to arcana, plus social skills leaving the wizard player constantly hearing "I'll try that too" from someone who i a clonestamp plus some extra. Because there are a limited number of "right spells" each level where both pretty much must take that spell, a sorcerer is likely to know & use the same spells without being significantly impacted by knowing fewer spells unless I as the gm go out of my way to deliberately hamstring the sorcerer

@SkidAce That's true in some settings, but the sorcerer does not need anyone to teach them any of that, they just know it and know it the same as the wizard but better.

 

[Aldarc]

I said it earlier that I'm almost exclusively a gm & find it a bug problem at my tables to have a sorcerer and wizard at the table together because the sorcerer lacks any distinct role of its own, the same spell list as wizard, a claim to arcana, plus social skills leaving the wizard player constantly hearing "I'll try that too" from someone who i a clonestamp plus some extra. Because there are a limited number of "right spells" each level where both pretty much must take that spell, a sorcerer is likely to know & use the same spells without being significantly impacted by knowing fewer spells unless I as the gm go out of my way to deliberately hamstring the sorcerer

The wizard gets more toys than the sorcerer and yet you are complaining that the sorcerer wants to play with the toys that they have?

 

[Undrave]

Gonna put it out there: in 4e the Sorcerer was a Striker and the Wizard a Controller and they felt different...

mostly like it was in 3E.

"Mostly like it was in 3E" is practically 5E's slogan...

It's not just a question of spells. If Sorcerers could somehow conjure raw magical energy and go freestyle with it, they would have something distinctive that Wizards don't have.

I think it would be cool to adapt something similar to the 4e Psion where you had a basic Cantrip that could be enhanced through the use of limited ressources. Like you have a basic ray attack and you can spend sorcery points to up the damage, up the number of targets, up the range, turn it into an AOE (that doesn't ignore allies) or even change the damage type... Or just add a rider to it. And you could just mix and match those. Each Cantrip would have a limited number of upgrades available so you don't get TOO overwhelmed. Maybe those upgradable cantrips would be subclass dependant and you'd still have some basic Cantrips from the regular spells.

Throw a few extra utility spells with limited usage as class features (like Absorb Elements or Shield X times per day) and you'd have something interesting.

The Metamorphosis Sorcerer also sounds like a cool idea that should have existed... it's a type of character we don't have in the game.

but some surveys indicated concerns about not being able to convert characters to the new edition.

People who are concerned about 'conversion' are the worse...

The sorcerer and the X-Men? They just have powers. No idea why, didn't have to do anything for them, they just have magic/superpowers without needing any explanation. Which as I said, I find less than compelling from a story perspective.

Origin stories are boring. It doesn't matter where mutants get their powers, what matters is what it means to them in their daily lives and what they do with them. If you care so much about origin stories you might be a Hollywood executive

 

[DEFCON 1]

Origin stories are boring. It doesn't matter where mutants get their powers, what matters is what it means to them in their daily lives and what they do with them. If you care so much about origin stories you might be a Hollywood executive

Were you one of the ones in the other thread talking about why character backstories are useless and stupid? If you were, then at least your opinion here in the quote is consistent.

 

[Undrave]

Were you one of the ones in the other thread talking about why character backstories are useless and stupid? If you were, then at least your opinion here in the quote is consistent.

I don't think I said they were useless and stupid, but they are certainly not as interesting as stuff the character is actively doing. Backstories should be used to explain motivations but not be the only interesting part of a character's story. Especially if you're not playing that part.

I'm glad that Spider-man Homecoming didn't waste time with an origin story... but I bet the next Batman movie is gonna waste WAY too much time retelling Batman's origin with lengthy flashbacks... We don't need origin stories all the time. If Marvel makes a Fantastic Four movie I hope they don't spend more than 5 minutes expositing on the backstory and just MOVE ON from there and have an ACTUAL story.