D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[Minigiant]

You’re right, although I think it would be possible to build a relatively simple system based on the old "Dungeon Master" video game. The Sorcerer just picks a shape, an energy, a purpose and a metamagic effect and assembles it into an improvised spell. He could conjure for example a cone-shaped, metallic detection spell on an enlarged area, and poooooof, he gets a gold detector spell. It would not be too complicated for D&D in my opinion, although it would probably stretch the limits of the genre.

Many of the skill based RPGs handle spells that way and I think that Sorcerers could do the same with sorcery points instead of harder skill checks.

Have things like

Sorcerer's Sight for a cone
Sorcerer's Voice for a point blank Aoe effect
Sorcerer's Skin for a self effect
Sorcerer's Hand for a touch effect

Then have various effects a sorcerer can choice like damage, darkvision, flight, grapples, etc that the sorcerer can spend points on. So Sorcerer's Eyes with the detection ability, you get darkvision and see invisible beings out 30 ft come. Sorcerer's Hand gives a 30ft come to someone you touch.. etc.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm not a fan of sorcerers for the simple fact that I think they have much less compelling stories attached to them. Say what you will about warlocks... but the connection between the warlock and their patron is rife with potential story. Does the warlock like the patron? Did they make the pact accidentally? Does the patron take an active hand in the warlock's day-to-day life? What happens when the warlock makes a break from the patron? Is the warlock willing to compromise their ideals for the power they receive? All these stories come out of the class.

Stories for wizards are not as compelling to me, but there's still more story potential. Wizards strive to master their magic. Wizards go out searching for new magics to learn. Wizards can see themselves as second-class citizens because they have to really work at gaining and mastering magic, rather than just having it handed to them like clerics, druids, and warlocks do. And also quite frankly the Wizard class just has a status within the game of D&D that makes them considered to be the most powerful people on any planet, so wizards are constantly striving to reach that potential. So that is rife with story potential too.

But the sorcerer? I'm like... eh? They get magic just because. They don't have to DO anything for it, they just get to throw spells around. All the other classes actually have to do things to gain their magical ability-- study and learn, worship or make deals with powerful entities and be their representatives, give of themselves to nature, study and master music. Those are things that to me generate potential story and interesting ideas and characterizations, whereas having magic just for the sake of it doesn't really do much for me.

I think it says a lot that one of the reasons mutants were invented in comic books was so that the writers (IE Stan Lee) no longer had to think up reasons how/why someone gained super powers, the characters could be super-powered for no reason whatsoever. It was him saying "I don't want to create story, I just want it to happen." And the sorcerer to me matches that ethos. Now yes... at least for the first two subclasses that were in the PHB (the wild mage and the draconic sorcerer) you had potential story implications with one sorcerer being unable to control their power, they other having essentially a "draconic patron" that could come into play down the road. But the other ones? You were granted storm powers with no drawbacks or connection to anyone else. Or shadow powers for no actionable reason. Or divine healing powers that require nothing on your part to gain, hold, or do... you just get to have them.

Now yes... I know others find the whole "I have magic inside of me!" idea to be the best story potential of them all... but I just don't see it the same way. To me it's too insular and too personal a story that just doesn't hold up as part of a group adventure game. And this is especially true when the sorcerer stands next to the cleric, wizard, or warlock and they are all the same level. Those three are having to work and do stuff within the world to access their power, and the sorcerer can just stand there smirking and staring at their fingernails-- knowing they are just as powerful as those three and giving up absolutely nothing. Nope... I just don't particular find it interesting.

I would like to point out that X-men became one of the most popular comic titles at Marvel.

I would like to also point out that The Hulk (gains powers through accident and contact with powerful forces), Spider-Man (gains powers through an accident and genetic alterations), Wonder Woman and Superman (born with it), The Flash (powers through accidental contact with powers beyond his control), The Fantastic Four (repeat the previous), ect ect ect all fit within the Sorcerer mold.

With Great Power comes Great Responsibility was a throw away line according to Stan Lee, but it has become a cornerstone of superhero mythos and it only works with characters like Sorcerers or accidental warlocks. Because the idea that you had greatness thrust upon you, without your consent or explicit desire, is a fundamental story idea.

You can go on forever, Luke Skywalker didn't look for power and prestige, he was forced into it. The sorcerer didn't seek power, but they have it anyways. That is compelling. You see "silver spoons" in "well, I just have power, didn't need to work for it like the plebes" but that's just a tiny sliver of the potential of the stories you can build. Elsa never sought her power, and for many many years she sees it as a curse. Something that divided her from her family and made her a danger to her sister.

Now, the mechanics don't support this. Mechanically, sorcerers are in control, but the mechanics also don't really support learning magic at all, so it is fairly easy to see that 1st level sorcerers have gained control, and before that point they were much more dangerous to those around them.

 

[MoonSong]

It was pure RAW, nothing in the rules state that different magical traditions have the exact same verbal or somatic components, so in the particular character’s case they had different sounds and hand movements than the ‘norm’, but still had them.

Ok, sorry for not being clear. How about the spellbook? Did this character have one? If not, that is not raw, if yes, then your character is not an example.

My 3E-Fu, is waning, but even a ‘low’ Cha Sorcerer still needed enough Cha to cover the adjusted spell slot level after applying the original type metamagic feats, ( not the Sudden metamagic feats introduced later), so a 13 CHA Sorc, throwing 5th level slot metamagic adjusted spells, is if my memory is correct, not RAW.

You need Cha 10 to cast at all. And you need 10+ level to learn spells of a given level, but you still get the slots. And by low I mean 11- low, posibly even 8-

Prior to the Sorc being a separate class, either type of background from the tables would and could be used by Magic User/ Wizard characters. Now the system is arguably trying to silo off backgrounds to either Wiz or Sorc, that would have been shared in the past.

Having int + spellbook makes wizard a poor fit for the "I was born with magic" background. The siloing started before sorcerer was a thing. Even if it wasn't the case...

But when new classes emerge, differentiation of flavor, fluff, and aesthetic between these classes also emerges. So here I would ask to your point: “So what?”

It's been 20 years! 20 years! Sorcerer wasn't born yesterday you know...

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

X-Men comics teach us we need an army of mutant-hunter sentinel robots to protect the defenseless masses against those with a superior power (for example the CEO of Umbrella Corp, Weyland-Yutani or OCP), and we should commision Norman Osborn, the iron patriot, to controll the superheroes registration act.

Sorcerer has been in all corebooks since 3rd Ed, and now Warlock is also. I am afraid this is not the best time to say all the arcane (full-)spellcaster classes should be merged again. Among other reasons because Paizo and 3PPs can create new classes may become too popular among players. Somebody could dare to publish a homebred version of Pathfinder classes adapted to D&D 5th Ed, for example the witch, the alchemist and the oracle.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I would like to point out that X-men became one of the most popular comic titles at Marvel.

What does that have to do with anything I was saying? I don't give a rat's ass if the sorcerer is "popular" with other people.

I would like to also point out that The Hulk (gains powers through accident and contact with powerful forces), Spider-Man (gains powers through an accident and genetic alterations), Wonder Woman and Superman (born with it), The Flash (powers through accidental contact with powers beyond his control), The Fantastic Four (repeat the previous), ect ect ect all fit within the Sorcerer mold.

And thus you apparently missed my point entirely. I wonder if you even read or understood what I said?

My point was not to try and figure out "Hey, is The Hulk a wizard or a sorcerer if you made him as a D&D character?" That's a stupid question whose answer means nothing.

The point was about how someone GAINED their powers. In this case, Bruce Banner actually had a story as to how he gained the powers of The Hulk. The whole "scientist gets hit with gamma radiation" story that lead up to becoming The Hulk. Just like Clerics have a story about being devout members of the church and making a connection with their deity and the deity granting them the power to be their champion. Both the cleric and Bruce Banner had to actually DO something to gain their power.

The sorcerer and the X-Men? They just have powers. No idea why, didn't have to do anything for them, they just have magic/superpowers without needing any explanation. Which as I said, I find less than compelling from a story perspective. I'm not saying the characters are BAD or that other people are BAD for liking them, nor even that they can't have interesting stories going forward. Of course they can. But just on the creation aspect of becoming a person with magic or superpowers... I think the story of how Peter Parker gained his abilities by having to be bitten by a radioactive spider and then undergoing a dramatic change on a cellular level and how/why a person made the choice to start studying how to become a wizard and then is able to accomplish incredible feats of magic are just more interesting.

With Great Power comes Great Responsibility was a throw away line according to Stan Lee, but it has become a cornerstone of superhero mythos and it only works with characters like Sorcerers or accidental warlocks. Because the idea that you had greatness thrust upon you, without your consent or explicit desire, is a fundamental story idea.

First of all.. "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" says nothing whatsoever about you gain power. The saying applies to anyone with great power, so saying its only for sorcerers and accidental warlocks is just not true.

The sorcerer didn't seek power, but they have it anyways. That is compelling.

If you think so, fine. I don't agree.

Oh, and by the way... Luke Skywalker wouldn't be a "sorcerer"... if we're going to play that game, he's be a cleric. He became a disciple of an ancient religion that he was told about and taught how to use. He didn't just realize he could use force powers back on the farm on his own... a higher-ranking religious instructor Obi-Wan Kenobi had to bring him into the fold, teach him about the Jedi religion, and then Luke had to work at it to actually start using it. Now yes, I'm sure you'll come back with "But there's no Jedi god, so he can't be a cleric!" ridiculousness... but that's why trying to make one-for-one comparisons to D&D classes is ultimately silly. But to think Luke just "became" a Jedi through some weird twist of fate and started walking around wearing robes and mind-controlling people without first going through all the instruction and training to do so is just wrong, in my opinion.

 

[FrogReaver]

What does that have to do with anything I was saying? I don't give a rat's ass if the sorcerer is "popular" with other people.



And thus you apparently missed my point

entirely. I wonder if you even read or understood what I said?

My point was not to try and figure out "Hey, is The Hulk a wizard or a sorcerer if you made him as a D&D character?" That's a stupid question whose answer means nothing.

The point was about how someone GAINED their powers. In this case, Bruce Banner actually had a story as to how he gained the powers of The Hulk. The whole "scientist gets hit with gamma radiation" story that lead up to becoming The Hulk. Just like Clerics have a story about being devout members of the church and making a connection with their deity and the deity granting them the power to be their champion. Both the cleric and Bruce Banner had to actually DO something to gain their power.

The sorcerer and the X-Men? They just have powers. No idea why, didn't have to do anything for them, they just have magic/superpowers without needing any explanation. Which as I said, I find less than compelling from a story perspective. I'm not saying the characters are BAD or that other people are BAD for liking them, nor even that they can't have interesting stories going forward. Of course they can. But just on the creation aspect of becoming a person with magic or superpowers... I think the story of how Peter Parker gained his abilities by having to be bitten by a radioactive spider and then undergoing a dramatic change on a cellular level and how/why a person made the choice to start studying how to become a wizard and then is able to accomplish incredible feats of magic are just more interesting.



First of all.. "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" says nothing whatsoever about you gain power. The saying applies to anyone with great power, so saying its only for sorcerers and accidental warlocks is just not true.


If you think so, fine. I don't agree.

Oh, and by the way... Luke Skywalker wouldn't be a "sorcerer"... if we're going to play that game, he's be a cleric. He became a disciple of an ancient religion that he was told about and taught how to use. He didn't just realize he could use force powers back on the farm on his own... a higher-ranking religious instructor Obi-Wan Kenobi had to bring him into the fold, teach him about the Jedi religion, and then Luke had to work at it to actually start using it. Now yes, I'm sure you'll come back with "But there's no Jedi god, so he can't be a cleric!" ridiculousness... but that's why trying to make one-for-one comparisons to D&D classes is ultimately silly. But to think Luke just "became" a Jedi through some weird twist of fate like a person becomes a sorcerer is just wrong, in my opinion.

my take - Jedi is more a religion of sorcerers.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Jedi knights or other force adepts are more like psionic monks.

 

[tetrasodium]

Until you understand that overlap is not the same as a theme then I'm afraid any argument I lay out based on that premise will fall on deaf ears.

mechanical overlap is the problem because sorcerer just copies & steals from the wizard toolbox while adding a few extra things in order to mechanically create a new class that is trying too hard to copy an existing class rather than having mechanics that support their "theme". If you want a theme for sorcerer find one that is distinct from wizard rather than changing the cufflinks, adding a bunch of stuff to the wallet, and complaining you don't get to keep the old cufflinks too.

If your argument is as it seems that sorcerers should mechanically be everything wizard plus some extra and still be justified in complaining that it doesn't copy or steal enough then you've admitted to straight up munchkinism as your goal. Dressing it up in roleplaying terms like "theme" to hide the absurd level of munchkinism by appearing to be something other than an argument for munchkinism does nothing for your "argument".

Want a class that's a magical being born with some innate thing?... sure I'll even say it's a great idea... want that class to be everything wizard plus a few extra things instead of mechanics that fit the theme?... that nonsense does not even deserve consideration.

Jedi could be an "order of sorcerers" & that is one more of the many ways sorcerers could have found their own niche instead of you & @MoonSong's "everything wizard has plus some extras & improvements minus the sticky bits like spellbooks & a more useful prime attribute". The jedi are a religious order like clerics not sorcerers because the mechamics don't support that in any way as wizard+

 

[Aldarc]

mechanical overlap is the problem because sorcerer just copies & steals from the wizard toolbox while adding a few extra things in order to mechanically create a new class that is trying too hard to copy an existing class rather than having mechanics that support their "theme". If you want a theme for sorcerer find one that is distinct from wizard rather than changing the cufflinks, adding a bunch of stuff to the wallet, and complaining you don't get to keep the old cufflinks too.

You seem to presume a one-sided issue here where the sorcerer just copies and steals from the wizard, but isn't the wizard's spontaneously casting any spell you know/prepare cribbing from the Sorcerer's original theme? Isn't the wizard being able to recharge for more spells just cribbing from the Sorcerer's more spells per day than a wizard to make up for their lack of versatility? As it stands, it sounds less like you want the Sorcerer to be unique and more like a Wizard player complaining that the Sorcerer has nice things. That may not be your intention, but your framing of this discussion comes across as somewhat lopsided.

 

[tetrasodium]

You seem to presume a one-sided issue here where the sorcerer just copies and steals from the wizard, but isn't the wizard's spontaneously casting any spell you know/prepare cribbing from the Sorcerer's original theme? Isn't the wizard being able to recharge for more spells just cribbing from the Sorcerer's more spells per day than a wizard to make up for their lack of versatility? As it stands, it sounds less like you want the Sorcerer to be unique and more like a Wizard player complaining that the Sorcerer has nice things. That may not be your intention, but your framing of this discussion comes across as somewhat lopsided.

Actually not at all... It could, but that's one not specific to wizard because it applies to cleric, druid, ranger, Warlock, paladin, EK, AT, & so on too. Some of those classes draw significantly or exclusively from the wizard spell list but unlike sorcerer those other classes bring significant class specific abilities to the table & unlike @FrogReaver or @MoonSong are doing, nobody is arguing that those classes should be clonestamps of the wizard minus the sticky bits plus some improvements. "a wizard but spontaneous casting plus some other improvements minus a spellbook" is not a niche either, it's a munchkin's take on wizard