D&D 5E Swordmage! (+thread)

[FrogReaver]

I think I’m not gonna bend on ritual casting. Might give them wizard ritual casting via their spellbook, but a normal spell list/prepared spells system.

The thing is, the class has to have some lore elements that set it apart from other gishes. My idea is that they are warriors who use ritual magic to enhance their magical and martial abilities.
I’d probably call the archetypes either Aegis of XYZ or The XYZ Circle, and lean into the idea of the hermetic/esoteric medieval sword masters.

Monk and Paladin are the comparison models, so I could go either way on points vs spell slots. Points allow more granularity and inclusion of new abilities that don’t have to be a whole spell, and don’t need to be balanced around other classes potentially gaining access. And either points I’d feel less wierd letting the class do wild stuff like, say, gaining full caster ritual casting, but only getting up to 5th level normal spells.

Swordmage doesn't scream ritual caster to me.

Most spells designed to work while attacking have not fared very well. I would lean toward Spell-like abilities that augment attacking and defending - some active and some passive.

An abjuration wizard or ancestral barbarian really has what I'd envision a magical aegis shield doing.


I probably would have them be warriors that use magic primarily to manipulate the battlefield. I'm thinking warriors that would be used in warfare to help break enemy ranks by pushing them out of the way, cutting off retreats with magical walls. Short range teleportation to get behind the enemy ranks, etc.

 

[FrogReaver]

That’s why I proposed an option that makes your AC 10+int+proficiency. It’d start at about 16, and cap out at 21. If that’s too good, for some reason, we can drop it down to 8+, which goes from about 13 to 19, and would want for a second feature or a shield to have good AC at low to mid levels.

Out of curiosity, why not just go 13+Int?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I dont know for you, but I think I'd go wild and make it magical without spell slots nor cantrips.
Much like the the Arcane Archer and the Battlemaster if its maneuver were magical.

• Arcane Ward: Add Int to AC while in Light or no armor, no shield. Can use reaction to reduce an attack within 30 (increases at 18) by 1d10+Int. Archetypes add extra effect.
• Fighting style at 2, Arcane maneuver on short rest, 4 uses (elemental damage + effect), scale at 11 and 17). Use Int for attack roll and damage roll.
• Attack are magical at 3rd. Archetypes at 3rd.
• Extra attack at 5
• Distant Strike at 10 can teleport between strikes, if attack 2 different creatures, can make a 3rd attack against another one.

I think it would be simpler to use a point or dice system and a combination of spells and maneuvers. This allows us to just use spells when the idea is 99% just an existing spell’s effects, and reinforces the idea that they are studied arcanists with a spellbook.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Out of curiosity, why not just go 13+Int?

I like it scaling with levels, and 10+prof+int does that well.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Swordmage doesn't scream ritual caster to me.

Most spells designed to work while attacking have not fared very well. I would lean toward Spell-like abilities that augment attacking and defending - some active and some passive.

An abjuration wizard or ancestral barbarian really has what I'd envision a magical aegis shield doing.


I probably would have them be warriors that use magic primarily to manipulate the battlefield. I'm thinking warriors that would be used in warfare to help break enemy ranks by pushing them out of the way, cutting off retreats with magical walls. Short range teleportation to get behind the enemy ranks, etc.

Feel free to make that. No offense, but I shared the basic vision in the OP, and I’m not really down to completely change that vision.

The concept is a ritual caster. As for spells...what are you even talking about? The smite spells, the ranger smite-like spells, stuff like magic weapon, divine favor, shadow blade, flaming sword, etc, are all perfectly reasonable and effective spells, that don’t interfere with the attack action but instead add to it.

Add in defensive spells like shield, armor of agythis, etc, and then all you need is a good suite of utility spells and a few control spells, preferably ones that stick around for a while, not stuff like fireball.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think I’m not gonna bend on ritual casting. Might give them wizard ritual casting via their spellbook, but a normal spell list/prepared spells system.

Ah. OK. So more of a "wizard who uses a sword" utility caster like a slightly more martial version of the bladesinger?
I was working off the image of the swordsage with magical disciplines, who meditate and prepare magic through esoteric martial principles and sword forms/kata.

The thing is, the class has to have some lore elements that set it apart from other gishes. My idea is that they are warriors who use ritual magic to enhance their magical and martial abilities.

There are no 5e rituals that enhance magical and martial abilities. They're non-combat minor utility spells so as not to break the daily balance any worse than it currently is.
Bear in mind that "ritual" in general English does not have to mean the same as the 5e rules for ritual spells. You could have a class that uses ritual magic without them needing to be able to cast Illusory script, or Leomund's Tiny Hut from a book.

Monk and Paladin are the comparison models, so I could go either way on points vs spell slots. Points allow more granularity and inclusion of new abilities that don’t have to be a whole spell, and don’t need to be balanced around other classes potentially gaining access. And either points I’d feel less wierd letting the class do wild stuff like, say, gaining full caster ritual casting, but only getting up to 5th level normal spells.

That’s why I proposed an option that makes your AC 10+int+proficiency. It’d start at about 16, and cap out at 21. If that’s too good, for some reason, we can drop it down to 8+, which goes from about 13 to 19, and would want for a second feature or a shield to have good AC at low to mid levels.

Huh. It allows them to beat traditional tanky classes, so that's definitely something to bear in mind when it comes to throttling down the power of the class. We can partially compensate by not allowing them shields and requiring them to keep an empty hand for casting though. - Preventing two-handed weapon use is going to push them even further towards Dex builds though.

Making them rely on smite spells could also help prevent their defences getting out of hand as well.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ah. OK. So more of a "wizard who uses a sword" utility caster like a slightly more martial version of the bladesinger?
I was working off the image of the swordsage with magical disciplines, who meditate and prepare magic through esoteric martial principles and sword forms/kata.

No, the point is to make a class that does weapon combat magically. Not a “more martial Bladesinger” or a “wizard with a sword”.
The second paragraph describes rituals.

There are no 5e rituals that enhance magical and martial abilities. They're non-combat minor utility spells so as not to break the daily balance any worse than it currently is.
Bear in mind that "ritual" in general English does not have to mean the same as the 5e rules for ritual spells. You could have a class that uses ritual magic without them needing to be able to cast Illusory script, or Leomund's Tiny Hut from a book.

You realize that 5e uses ritual both ways, right? And that...you can introduce new things in a new class?
Frankly, I’m not interested in arguing about whether the premises and design goals of the thread are good. If I was, I’d have said that in the OP.

Huh. It allows them to beat traditional tanky classes, so that's definitely something to bear in mind when it comes to throttling down the power of the class. We can partially compensate by not allowing them shields and requiring them to keep an empty hand for casting though. - Preventing two-handed weapon use is going to push them even further towards Dex builds though.

It doesn’t allow any such thing. The traditional tank classes all get heavy armor except the barbarian, who has rage damage resistance to compensate. An AC range of 15-21 is right in line with tank classes.

Making them rely on smite spells could also help prevent their defences getting out of hand as well.

Okay.

 

[Xeviat]

I like it scaling with levels, and 10+prof+int does that well.

One thing to notice is that the Monk is the only class that scales this high naturally (The barbarian can, but Dex barbarians are weird). 10+Dex+Int starts at around 15-16, and goes all the way up to 20, just like the monk. I think the monk is partially accepting that they don't have armor enhancement bonuses, as the extra 3 scaling from boosting a second score from 14 to 20 is the same as getting up to a +3 armor.

If you're okay with the Swordmage being an Int/Dex class primarily, then 10+Dex+Int scales well. A "heavy" version could use Str and just have a fixed 13+Int, with a +1 and +2 growth somewhere in their progression.

The question I always ask in Swordmage discussions, and I fully intend this as a supportive and constructive question, is what archetype are you trying to cover with the class? Answering this question will help you in guiding your design path. I tend to not like the Swordmage, partially because I don't like the name and partially because I think it fits into the subclass design just fine, BUT I do think it could be used to fit an archetype of modern gaming and anime: the mystical swordsman.

The mystical swordsman does things with their weapon, and sometimes their movement, that seem supernatural. Swinging their sword so hard an arch of sharp air cuts their enemies from a far, moving so fast they seem to teleport, that sort of thing.

I just dislike compound word class names. Kensei works, but using a name in another language is kind of cheating to me (and it translates to "Sword Saint", so again a compound name).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

No, the point is to make a class that does weapon combat magically. Not a “more martial Bladesinger” or a “wizard with a sword”.
The second paragraph describes rituals.

Hmm. OK. I'll hold off until I see how the rituals that you are introducing for the class work and what they do.

You realize that 5e uses ritual both ways, right? And that...you can introduce new things in a new class?
Frankly, I’m not interested in arguing about whether the premises and design goals of the thread are good. If I was, I’d have said that in the OP.

Just ensuring that you understood that a class that "uses ritual magic" is not required to cast 5e ritual spells.

It doesn’t allow any such thing. The traditional tank classes all get heavy armor except the barbarian, who has rage damage resistance to compensate. An AC range of 15-21 is right in line with tank classes.

Heavy armour maxes out at 18. A tanky class can only get up to 21 baseline by seriously sacrificing performance in the area of damage. (Using a shield prevents two-handed weapon use, and they have to use their weapon style on Defence rather than something more offensively-oriented.)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One thing to notice is that the Monk is the only class that scales this high naturally (The barbarian can, but Dex barbarians are weird). 10+Dex+Int starts at around 15-16, and goes all the way up to 20, just like the monk. I think the monk is partially accepting that they don't have armor enhancement bonuses, as the extra 3 scaling from boosting a second score from 14 to 20 is the same as getting up to a +3 armor.

If you're okay with the Swordmage being an Int/Dex class primarily, then 10+Dex+Int scales well. A "heavy" version could use Str and just have a fixed 13+Int, with a +1 and +2 growth somewhere in their progression.

The question I always ask in Swordmage discussions, and I fully intend this as a supportive and constructive question, is what archetype are you trying to cover with the class? Answering this question will help you in guiding your design path. I tend to not like the Swordmage, partially because I don't like the name and partially because I think it fits into the subclass design just fine, BUT I do think it could be used to fit an archetype of modern gaming and anime: the mystical swordsman.

The mystical swordsman does things with their weapon, and sometimes their movement, that seem supernatural. Swinging their sword so hard an arch of sharp air cuts their enemies from a far, moving so fast they seem to teleport, that sort of thing.

I just dislike compound word class names. Kensei works, but using a name in another language is kind of cheating to me (and it translates to "Sword Saint", so again a compound name).

So, the AC is comparable to medium and then heavy armor. This allows strength or Dex builds with no particular issues.

the name, I get where you’re coming from but, there isn’t a better name, and Swordmage has history in D&D .