Lore Bards and Diviners are the shizz. Better, mechanically, than the Paladin IMO, although the Paladin definitely takes the cake for the melee classes. Paladin, Paladin, Rogue, Lore Bard, Diviner might be the uber party.
Sounds like the opening for a joke.
"A bard, a paladin, and a wizard walk into a tavern....."
The punchline being that there were two other characters in the party but no one noticed them.
Yeah, the Lore Bard can probably take care of Rogue stuff just fine. I'm old school enough I don't like to without a Rogue though. I was actually thinking more specifically of an Assassin MC build. The assassin nova's first, then some sexy control, they the Paladin's do their thing. A light cleric would also be pretty optimized. It's kind of level dependent really. The Assassin doesn't come online until 8th level, so for a lower tier game I'd go light Cleric. For a higher tier game I'd go Assassin. I might be biased about the assassin.
Evasion,
uncanny dodge,
sneak attack, and
reliable talent beg to differ. Both gain skill abilities but rogues gain them faster and by the time lore bards have
peerless skill (which runs on a limited resource) all rogues have
reliable talent. Eliminating low rolls lets rogues succeed at checks more often than a limited use bonus.
Rogues have innate defensive abilities that tank damage better and are better at skills. Bards do a lot but they still don't do it as well as more focused classes.
The Valor bard can do respectable damage if you pick up Hunter's Mark, one of the spell smites, or Swift Quiver. However, those are all Concentration spells, and Bards typically have much more interesting things to do with Concentration. When I played one, we already had a Barbarian, Paladin, and Moon Druid, so more damage was really not a priority. I ended up using other spells a lot while plinking with my bow.
Compare that to a vengeance paladin who also casts
hunter's mark or
haste plus has a fighting style,
improved divine smite, more smite options,
vow of enmity, and a bonus to make concentration saves the bard doesn't have.
Both are also putting ASI's into an attack stat instead of CHA, or are going for CHA and losing accuracy and damage on the attacks. MAD hits them in ways that don't hit fighters, barbarians, and rogues that people tend to forget.
A person can build a STR based PAM or GWM valor bard but they are losing out in other areas in the process. Going that route gets damage faster than waiting for 10th level on a spell for the archer. Going ranged would be better off CE for the bonus action attack in the meantime, making
haste better than
swift quiver by that level.
Am I right in thinking fighter is not even in the running? makes me sad. Paladins were admittedly a type of fighter way back when but still.
A battlemaster unloading expertise dice on an action surge nova's nicely. Same armor, same hit die, both have self healing and saving throw benefits under different mechanics, bonus feats/ASI's are nice. I prefer the fighter but my adventuring days don't consist of "fight's over let's rest". Or the EK is rather similar but MOAR attacks vs MOAR spells.
I don't think the argument of a "weak" fighter is true. Possibly over-specialized but fighters don't struggle with being able to fight well.
A Bard that takes 2 levels of Paladin is even funnier.
Sure is because he delays access to higher level abilities and gives up both a 7th level spell slot and an ASI for the ability to waste spell slots on damage that would have been more effective cast on spells. Like the higher level spells he just delayed and permanently giving up a
force cage, for example.
"Look at me!!! I delayed casting
hypnotic pattern so I can blow those slots on single target d8's instead."
Claiming a bard is powerful because of the paladin smite ability seems a bit misplaced, no?