D&D 5E Monster Tactics: Avoiding Fireballs

[DEFCON 1]

How many high level casters are there?

5th level casters in the Forgotten Realms? Probably thousands. Which does mean just what you said further down...

I personally do assume magical defenses that are not necessarily in the book. This was more of an issue in previous editions when a rock to mud spell could take out a castle from a distance, but just because spells aren't explicitly spelled out in the PHB does not mean that it does not exist. Spells in the book are just spells appropriate to adventurers, spells that for the most part can be cast in a matter of seconds.

A world like the Realms would have all the magical military defenses against Fireballs because as soon as someone invented the Fireball spell... some other wizard would have been paid by a nation to develop a counter. Which was basically my response to @Reynard 's question as to whether soldiers would line up in formations and such, or spread out to avoid AoE spells. In a world where there would be enough mages of 5th level to line up for a nation's military conflict (or even more... knowledge enough of the magic of the Fireball spell for nations to spend all the time and money they need to create Fireball wands up the wazoo to allow for long lines of magical artillery)... the idea of medieval combat would have gone out the window. Armies would be run and fought a la First World War, not the Dark Ages like most D&D players visualize it.

Most giants could do a significant amount of damage to castle walls. Just like all sorts of siege equipment from catapults to trebuchets could. Except those siege engines are probably more difficult to "kill" and have greater ranges.

But trebuchets also do not walk over castle walls, and do not cause damage at the same speed at which giants would. Loading up a trebuchet takes time... a half-dozen stone giants rushing a small city does not. A city would not spend their time and money building plain stone walls for defense when they can be much more easily breached... especially with armies that can field flights of military atop griffons, hippogriffs, wyverns and the like.

There's a reason why cities nowadays do not build walls around themselves... because the ways to get over said walls to attack the city within are so simple to do that walls are pointless and become obsolete (thank you Wright Brothers!). And with the amount of magic and monsters in typical D&D that could walk, destroy or fly over those city walls... medieval city planning and construction should also have been rendered obsolete.

The fact that it isn't that way is purely because we players love the idea of castles, knight, and fantasy. But based upon the "technology level" that magic spells can produce in said typical D&D worlds... medieval construction would have been blown past centuries if not millenia ago.

Just wanted to pee in everyone's punch bowl a bit.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So like "Game of Thrones" level of the fantastical? (just asking for clarity)

Or like Lord of the Rings, but sure.

Notably, the Orc War Chief in the Monster Manual has an ability that strongly incentivizes all orcs to pack as tightly as possible, for maximum effect. A world where orcs know about fireball is a very different world from one where they don't.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Just wanted to pee in everyone's punch bowl a bit.

Thank the gods for purify food and water, then.
But that's a different civilization-shaping spell discussion....

 

[Oofta]

5th level casters in the Forgotten Realms? Probably thousands. Which does mean just what you said further down...



A world like the Realms would have all the magical military defenses against Fireballs because as soon as someone invented the Fireball spell... some other wizard would have been paid by a nation to develop a counter. Which was basically my response to @Reynard 's question as to whether soldiers would line up in formations and such, or spread out to avoid AoE spells. In a world where there would be enough mages of 5th level to line up for a nation's military conflict (or even more... knowledge enough of the magic of the Fireball spell for nations to spend all the time and money they need to create Fireball wands up the wazoo to allow for long lines of magical artillery)... the idea of medieval combat would have gone out the window. Armies would be run and fought a la First World War, not the Dark Ages like most D&D players visualize it.



But trebuchets also do not walk over castle walls, and do not cause damage at the same speed at which giants would. Loading up a trebuchet takes time... a half-dozen stone giants rushing a small city does not. A city would not spend their time and money building plain stone walls for defense when they can be much more easily breached... especially with armies that can field flights of military atop griffons, hippogriffs, wyverns and the like.

There's a reason why cities nowadays do not build walls around themselves... because the ways to get over said walls to attack the city within are so simple to do that walls are pointless and become obsolete (thank you Wright Brothers!). And with the amount of magic and monsters in typical D&D that could walk, destroy or fly over those city walls... medieval city planning and construction should also have been rendered obsolete.

The fact that it isn't that way is purely because we players love the idea of castles, knight, and fantasy. But based upon the "technology level" that magic spells can produce in said typical D&D worlds... medieval construction would have been blown past centuries if not millenia ago.

Just wanted to pee in everyone's punch bowl a bit.

Well ... I'll just say that I disagree so go pee in your own bowl.

There is a counter to fireball. It's called ... wait for it ... counterspell. Tada! If the defenders have casters, the attacking army probably has them as well.

As far as giants go, yeah, they're big and mobile. But being big is going to be a real detriment. You probably see them coming from a long ways away giving you (in most situations) plenty of opportunity to pepper them with arrows or heavier ranged weapons. Not sure how big giants are in your world, but unless they're titan sized 100 ft tall, they aren't walking over many castle walls.

But I think "how would magic change the world" is a different topic and with more answers than "Who would win a fight between Batman and Superman." Which of course has one obvious answer. Mine.

 

[Reynard]

Or like Lord of the Rings, but sure.

Notably, the Orc War Chief in the Monster Manual has an ability that strongly incentivizes all orcs to pack as tightly as possible, for maximum effect. A world where orcs know about fireball is a very different world from one where they don't.

Magic is significantly more common in Lord of the Rings than it is in Game of Thrones. No one believes in magic in Game of Thrones until they are face to face with it. Everyone believes in magic in Lord of the Rings, they just don't necessarily see it all that often. There is talk of not just elves and dwarven magical toys, but of sorcerers and other magicians. It's definitely not Realms level magic, but it is not unheard of and most even minor characters recognize it when they see it.

 

[Reynard]

One thing I did not make terribly clear is I am not really talking about vast armies, but more warbands and stuff. Besides, the question about how would a D&D world look if all that stuff in the PHB was common has already been answered by Eberron.

 

[Todd Roybark]

What I meant us you CAN derive the answers from what's in the books and use that to inform your world building.

No. 5e is at it’s primary core, a stable rules architecture that can be used used to model any number of thematic simulations. As long as the mechanical rules stay within the Bounded Accuracy constraints, the flavor can be anything you want it to be.

A non magical world is just as viable a platform as a magical world. A PC can still have full magical progression in a non magical world. A setting with only say 200 total magic using creatures ( a non magical world), can be modeled using the books as written. It is called editing.
You curate to find what fits, and what does not.

Presuming the rules have assumptions, that intractably lead to specific thematic conclusions, is an over reach.

Thematic elements, like Alignment, are unbound. Changes can be made freely, and without restriction to thematic elements.

 

[MarkB]

Well ... I'll just say that I disagree so go pee in your own bowl.

There is a counter to fireball. It's called ... wait for it ... counterspell. Tada! If the defenders have casters, the attacking army probably has them as well.

The tricky part being that Counterspell has a range of 60 feet, while Fireball has a range of 150 feet. Better hope that all those Counterspellers are sorcerers with Distant Spell, and even then they're still out-ranged.

 

[Oofta]

The tricky part being that Counterspell has a range of 60 feet, while Fireball has a range of 150 feet. Better hope that all those Counterspellers are sorcerers with Distant Spell, and even then they're still out-ranged.

I think this is a separate topic. On the other hand a long bow has a close range of 150 ft and the best counterspell is to make the wizard a pincushion.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Magic is significantly more common in Lord of the Rings than it is in Game of Thrones. No one believes in magic in Game of Thrones until they are face to face with it. Everyone believes in magic in Lord of the Rings, they just don't necessarily see it all that often. There is talk of not just elves and dwarven magical toys, but of sorcerers and other magicians. It's definitely not Realms level magic, but it is not unheard of and most even minor characters recognize it when they see it.

But they still don't enter combat with the assumption that they need to account for it. They all believe in it, as some distant factor that will never affect them personally. At least, until Gandalf actually starts doing something, and they quickly have to reassess their perspective.