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D&D 5E Is 5e "Easy Mode?"

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Yeah right feeling kicked out is so so me coming at it from a tribal perspective.

Well yes, it is. When you say, "I am of the bear folk, and i feel kicked out by the tiger folk" that is saying you're coming at it from a tribal perspective. So when you said "I am of the 4e folk, and i feel kicked out by the 5e folk" that's pretty darn tribal. Again, are you really saying it's just everyone else being tribal except you?

And not a bunch of tribesman deciding the game is perfect and not liking somebody wanting more... and resenting it to the point of big shut up comments.

1) Not one person here said the game is perfect; 2) not one person said that they don't like you for wanting something different or more; 3) not one person told you to shut up.

See, that's what I mean by a tribalistic perspective. When you think of it in tribes, you automatically default to extremes about "the other side". You read everything they say and do in the worst possible perspective because it's "not your people" or "you're not their people".

Nobody is victimizing you for liking things different than what you like. Stop claiming they are.

4e was a fine game. There are lots of people working to make third party rules to make 5e play more like the things you liked about 4e. Focusing on those would be a heck of a lot more positive than claiming everyone is picking on you for not liking what you like.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
So, you don't want players to actually face save or die effects. You want them to fear save or die effects and when they don't react appropriately, then kill them.

Because otherwise, why would you change how poison works after they know poison is in play? Honestly, that is just so much worse to me. Player 1 gets hit, and takes damage, but is fine. Player 2 gets hit next round and dies. The Dm shrugs and says "sorry, player 1 got hit with a lower dose than you did"

No, my point is that there are ways for the PCs/players to know that poison is in play, and that they need to be prepared because poison is often save or die.

Notice that in my snake example (becuase everyone knows snakes are venomous) I pointed out that knowing that might not matter. If you are thrown into a pit of snakes, you don't have a lot of other options, whether you know snakes are poisonous or not.

Quite true. Although in any edition, being thrown into a pit of venomous snakes has a good chance of being fatal. On the other hand, it made for a dramatic scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the "DM" gave the "PC" an opportunity to change their tactics.

But again, this seems to miss the point. Sure, the person who fell and missed all the spikes didn't die. So now they know traps are in the area. But they don't know that a single failed save is going to kill them. And, they likely went into this expecting traps anyways. The Tomb of Horrors, if memory serves, tells the players that the tomb is a death trap full of deadly traps. It doesn't need a trap in front to remind them that there are traps in the dungeon.

If they know that poison is frequently save or die, then they do know that.

When you feel the need to make it less likely the players will fail, you need to look at why that is.

...

If you find yourself granting advantage on saves, because a failure will kill them, and you don't want them to die. Then maybe instead of giving advantage, you should make the trap not deadly.

It's not really a situation of "making it less likely to fail." It's about building suspense and tension.

Consider this, comparing the mechanics):
DM: Make a Perception check.
Player: Crap, a 7.
The floor suddenly drops below you and you fall into a pit, landing on several spikes for 11 piercing damage. Make a Constitution save.
Player: 17
DM: You feel a slight burning, probably poison, but it doesn't cause any other effects.

or

DM: The floor suddenly drops, a pit trap? Roll percentile dice.
Player: Crap, I hope I make it. 37.
DM: You tried to leap free, but the floor dropped out too quickly. Roll a d6 to see if you land on any spikes.
Player: Spikes? Ugh. OK, A 4.
DM: You manage to rotate enough to land between two of the spikes, they glisten slightly with a thick black substance.
Player: Probably poison. Whew, that was close.

The first one is quick and doesn't build any suspense. Also, failure to detect the pit always results in damage. This is the 5e mechanic in the updated ToH.

The second one is the original mechanic. It builds more suspense, especially since players know that poison is save or die. Now they know there are pit traps with poison.

Yes, they expected traps, and are probably taking precautions. But this still increases the tension (in my opinion) because it highlights that the traps are likely to be deadly. This is also the opening of the adventure, letting you know that the adventure is likely to be deadly.

In 5e, how deadly is it? What does it tell you about the rest of the adventure? There are traps, and poison. Yeah, as long as we don't take too much damage in a single hit, we can expend Hit Dice, or stop and rest if we need to.

--

Another example, from ToH. It's often said that it has too many arbitrary traps that are too deadly. But once again, examining the math shows that the chance of death is actually very slim, and that it's a device to ramp up the suspense and tension. For example, the Knockout Corridor.

There's a sleep gas that has a good chance of putting most of the party to sleep. Although it doesn't specify whether elves are immune, they should be (in 5e, they are knocked unconscious, eliminating this ambiguity). So the rest of the party (which could be somewhat large with hirelings and henchmen), are knocked out. A stone juggermaught might come out, and start coming down the corridor, and crush anyone in its path. Mathematically, it's very rare that somebody will actually get crushed. Once could argue that it could be made so nobody gets crushed.

This plays out the same way in 1e and 5e, they didn't alter it other than the wording to unconscious. The events are often not experienced by the PCs, it's the players that are the audience while their PCs lie helpless. Since the rest of the dungeon has ramped up the difficulty, by this point their expectation is that it could be deadly. The fact that occasionally it is (and players talk to other players), added to the reputation of the dungeon. That is, the dungeon among players shared the same reputation as it did within the game.

I'm not saying this is a perfect design, and I know that not everybody will like this approach to playing. But the mechanics in both of these cases in the original are building the suspense in a way that is missing in many of the mechanics of 5e.

Again, to each their own. But I've built off this approach for decades, and my players over the years have loved it. And I think the reason why is that it's often very difficult to make the players fear for the lives of their PCs. And it's become harder to do that over the years as the power level of the PCs have increased.

Again, I'm not saying one approach is better than another. They are simply different approaches to adventure design and mechanics, and provide a different feel and play experience. Different groups will like different approaches.
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
economic pattern... yes -> And PF was a bloody clone with a base of people who didn't want change

So we are expecting a PF2 to do well from a base who do not want change?
When PF came out, 3.5 was getting long in the tooth & the cracks in its foundation were starting to show long before PF in too many ways that damaged things. 4e came out and... yea.. eventually my pf group moved on with life/work/etc. 5e came out & I was still happily running fate games but eventually something in stk made me think eberron was coming soon so I took a plunge & started with 5e. Not finding the setting support I wanted in the system I started building & homebrewing to make do, problem being that 5e has fairly numerous glue traps set down in place of missing floorboards in a lot of places as @Mistwell pointed out earlier & those glue traps are a huge mess to simply change because too much of 5e is built around their existence in ways that will fight you. I liked starfinder when I joined a group playing it for a bit & like what I see in pf2 with one of my players having tried to stoke interest among my main group of players but for now it's still wotc's ball to pickup because switching systems is a big hassle. With
Covid
literally putting every game on hold though.... Even if my pf2 fan player convinces the group to give up on 5e & switch to a different system giving feedback & criticism is valuable to shape things in the future. As it is, this is probably the first time I might have a player trying to convince the group to jump systems and personally as the gm have no preference between dealing with 5e's hassles & the hassle of learning/converting to pf2.

I don't remember switching to pf1 because I didn't want to change so much as because I wanted change but 4e sure was...... something.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I am trying to figure out why "popularity" is brought up on here everytime there is a complaint as though that broadly and generally invalidates the complaint because?

It's fair for you to try to figure that out, but claiming that should be conflated with the strawman of people saying it's perfect doesn't seem like a wise path to figuring that out.

It's popular means, in this case, that a strong majority of people like this game more than other games. That's it. People also like NFL football. That doesn't mean people think NFL football is perfect - it means they like it more than other sports. And it doesn't mean I should feel bad because I don't like NFL football either. I am not some victim for not liking something others like, or victimized by people bringing up how popular the NFL is in the USA.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
It's fair for you to try to figure that out, but claiming that should be conflated with the strawman of people saying it's perfect doesn't seem like a wise path to figuring that out.

It's popular means, in this case, that a strong majority of people like this game more than other games. That's it. People also like NFL football. That doesn't mean people think NFL football is perfect - it means they like it more than other sports. And it doesn't mean I should feel bad because I don't like NFL football either. I am not some victim for not liking something others like, or victimized by people bringing up how popular the NFL is in the USA.
Popularity is useful for Andy when Bob gets a new job/has a kid/etc & needs to drop, because Andy can quickly find a replacement for Bob rather than spending months of actively working to bring in someone nearby enough with a compatible schedule. You see popularity getting skewered whenever there are complaints or criticism because ad populum tends to be deployed as a shield to deflect that criticism with a logic flow along the lines of "5e is the most popular edition ever & it works for me, just fix it if you don't like it">"It's not that simple to just fix it because X Y Z" >"works fine for me & millions of others, must be a problem with you or your gm skills" while dancing around the criticism.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It's fair for you to try to figure that out, but claiming that should be conflated with the strawman of people saying it's perfect doesn't seem like a wise path to figuring that out.
They can say they think its not perfect but when they are using popularity to "somehow" seemingly invalidate and in response to complaints they are saying another thing to those complaining. They are saying what they personally like is more important and they have the masses opinions behind them and it sucks to be you or some other derivative. They also do not want to hear your issue not really they want to address this big how many people likes it picture instead of the issue you bring up. How is that not just fingers in the ears la la la.
(sure also not all X people)
I am not some victim for not liking something others like, or victimized by people bringing up how popular the NFL is in the USA.
That isnt what is happening.
Someone starts talking about how american football now doesn't allow some of the cool sneakie tricks it used to have before they standardized the rules (and there was some weird shenanigans) when they standardized the rules they were saying hey but you can completely play those cool tricks but now it seems like that isn't really true without dramatic amounts of effort, and you get a response of but everybody likes the game better now.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Your confusion over the absorption shield built into 5e indicates a poor understanding of 5e's rules.

Mod Note:
And your continuing to make cutting remarks at people indicates a poor understanding of how you should behave in a thread that's had several mod warnings in it.

It probably didn't feel good to have someone say that to you. Which is why you shouldn't do it to others.

Whether or not you get that point, you are done in this thread. Please find a thread to in which you can treat folks with respect.
 

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