Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

I think you are both slightly mis-representing what Dave's goal is.
Yep you pretty much nailed it, except for one clarification...
He mentioned before that he is a scientist professionally, so he wants to make a distinction.
...I am not a scientist professionally, it was @Paul Farquhar I believe that said that. I am an architect professionally. I have friends who are scientists, but I am not one myself.
 

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Anyway, so the distinction is not really about the source of the technology, is it?
For me it is. If the farm boy is riding a horse and swing a sword its fantasy and if he is piloting a spaceship and shooting a blaster it is sci-fi. The themes and morality are irrelevant from my perspective. Either genre could cover the same stories, it is just the setting that is different. Now the settings might lend themselves to particular types of stories, but that is a far as I would take it.
 

Science Fantasy isn't really a genre though. It's a lazy portmanteau. Just because something is "softer" SF, doesn't make it "science fantasy".

There's a lot of folks making definitive statements on genre in this thread.

Who decides science fantasy isn't a "real" genre? You? The High Council of Literature?

Genre is loose, fuzzy, constantly shifting, and rarely does anyone agree on where one genre begins and the other ends. Folks tend to be "lumpers" or "splitters", lumping as many works into one larger genre as feasible, or splitting things out into many, many smaller more specific genres.

Science fantasy is a very real genre, although we could argue all day about what is and what isn't science fantasy. Upthread it was described as sci-fi with impossible elements. A somewhat different definition was a fantasy story in a futuristic setting, fantasy with the trappings of sci-fi . . . . both work, both provide genre inspiration for psionics.

Star Wars is science fantasy. So is Star Trek. How the two are different and how much of each franchise is fantasy we could argue for pages. They map to the two definitions I reference above. Both have psionics . . . the "Force" in Star Wars and telepathic aliens in Star Trek (Vulcans, Betazoids, others).

Sword & Planet fiction, another sub-genre, is one of my favorite styles of science fantasy. Guy takes a rocket ship to an obscure planet, and basically has a fantasy adventure . . . .
 

For me it is. If the farm boy is riding a horse and swing a sword its fantasy and if he is piloting a spaceship and shooting a blaster it is sci-fi. The themes and morality are irrelevant from my perspective. Either genre could cover the same stories, it is just the setting that is different. Now the settings might lend themselves to particular types of stories, but that is a far as I would take it.

So for you is Star Wars pure science fiction, and not at all fantasy?
 

So for you is Star Wars pure science fiction, and not at all fantasy?
No that is not what I think, but that is also not relevant to what I am discussing.

Listen I am not interested in discussing or distinguishing the genres of sci-fi, fantasy, and sci-fantasy. I think they are malleable, and I don't really care about the distinction. I just want to distinguish what type of science is being represented.
 

I'm trying to separate the meanings actually. I am full on board with the distinction between the fantasy genre and the sci-fi genre. My only desire is to label some of the "science" in sci-fi as "fantasy" as it has nothing to do with real science. My desire to do this is my real world fears about the serious lack of understanding regarding science, fact, fiction, and faith in the USA. So, all I am saying is that though PSI abilities are a feature of sci-fi stories, the abilities themselves are "science-fantasy." Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense, and I laud the goal, but I think your zeal in pursuing that goal clouds the discussion.

The problem, I think, is that although elements of the fantasy genre are indeed fantastical, that is not what really what defines the fantasy genre. Thus not everything with fantastical elements belongs in the fantasy genre.

So when you use the phrase "science fantasy" to mean "like science fiction, but with pseudo-science", it is easy to misconstrue your intent to mean that it's a blend of the two genres.
 
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For me it is. If the farm boy is riding a horse and swing a sword its fantasy and if he is piloting a spaceship and shooting a blaster it is sci-fi. The themes and morality are irrelevant from my perspective. Either genre could cover the same stories, it is just the setting that is different. Now the settings might lend themselves to particular types of stories, but that is a far as I would take it.

But, you now realize that you are using the terms differently than everyone else right? You've actually stopped communicating and now you are forcing the rest of us to accept your new definitions for words that have well established meaning.

I'm trying to separate the meanings actually. I am full on board with the distinction between the fantasy genre and the sci-fi genre. My only desire is to label some of the "science" in sci-fi as "fantasy" as it has nothing to do with real science. My desire to do this is my real world fears about the serious lack of understanding regarding science, fact, fiction, and faith in the USA. So, all I am saying is that though PSI abilities are a feature of sci-fi stories, the abilities themselves are "science-fantasy." Does that make sense?

I agree, and that is not what I was trying to suggest. Hopefully my explanation above clarified that for you.

But, again, no one in this thread is doing that. I get the impulse, but, these are words with actual definitions. When you start creating your own definitions and then insisting everyone else use your definitions, then all you are doing is confusing the issue.
 

No that is not what I think, but that is also not relevant to what I am discussing.

Listen I am not interested in discussing or distinguishing the genres of sci-fi, fantasy, and sci-fantasy. I think they are malleable, and I don't really care about the distinction. I just want to distinguish what type of science is being represented.

What types of science are there?
 

Caveat: This is a forum post, not a researched thesis, so take with a grain of salt. It's similar to what Hussar has said, but expands on it in a few ways.

Trying to think of differentiators...

Sci-fi:
Ghost in the Shell
Battle Angel Alita
2001
I, Robot
Foundation series

Each of them contains multiple stories within them. Murder mysteries, political thrillers, war, rebellion, sports, etc, but those descriptors wouldn't be considered those series' "genre". They are all indisputably sci-fi. They also all contain impossible, "non-scientific" elements. The "fantastical" elements do not make these part of the fantasy genre.

They all, however, deal with issues of identity, particularly in contrast with changing culture. Either the world changing around the protagonist, or the protagonist changing beyond the pace of the world. What does it mean to be human? What is moral and/or ethical?

The more I think through sci-fi stories I can bring to mind, the more common this one trait is: It asks a question that touches on ethics, morality, choice, or identity, and tries to explore how that question can be answered.

Fantasy, on the other hand, does not. It never tries to question the self; rather, it tries to manifest the inner self. Farm boy to hero. Believe in yourself. Destiny. Morality is simple; it's assumed to be true. You're the hero, and must defeat the enemy. It's a matter of holding onto your morals, and avoiding being corrupted (eg: Lord of the Rings).

Sci-fi questions morals, while Fantasy reinforces morals. Sci-fi questions identity, while Fantasy shapes identity. Sci-fi pokes and prods and tries to answer questions, while Fantasy takes those answers as a given, and tries to show you that they're good.

Hard sci-fi takes science seriously, and asks serious questions about its implications. It's primarily interested in the impact of technology on the questions it asks. Soft sci-fi divorces the questions from real science so that it can ask questions that don't easily fit within scientific boundaries. It's primarily interested on the impact of people on the questions it asks.

Fantasy shapes a story to build a moral lesson (such as the classic Grimms' Fairy Tales), or show the goodness of following a moral path (eg: stand against corruption, defeat evil).

So Star Trek would be soft sci-fi, while Star Wars would be Fantasy.

If magic is in sci-fi, it must necessarily be soft sci-fi, because there's no point in rigorously examining an unreal rule system. In fantasy, however, magic is merely a tool, and is included more for entertainment's sake than because it's a requirement of the genre. You could just as easily have a science-based setting, leading to "Science Fantasy".

Sci-fi almost always has futuristic settings because the questions it asks are inevitably, "What are the implications of this change?" That question is forward-looking; it's implicitly about the future, and thus carries with it everything we have in the present, plus a little. Fantasy is period-agnostic, but it's often easier to tell the story in a simpler environment, such as a pseudo-medieval setting, where modern technology doesn't undermine or second-guess everything you do.


So those are my further thoughts on the distinction between sci-fi and fantasy.
 

Edit: Can someone cogently explain to me what resolving this line of discussion achieves for the matter of psionics in 5e D&D? Anyone?
It refers back to how people view psionics, which has changed over the 46 years D&D has been in existence, from something based in the pseudo-science of the 60s and 70s to the space magic of the Star Wars era.
 
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