D&D 5E Hex Shenanigans

[jaelis]

To be fair, there is a debatable question of whether you can benefit from a short rest while concentrating. The short rest rules require you to do "nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." The rules don't say whether concentrating is more strenuous than those things, so the DM would have to decide. (At my table you can concentrate through a short rest, and I believe that is the intended rule.)

 

[Ashrym]

To be fair, there is a debatable question of whether you can benefit from a short rest while concentrating. The short rest rules require you to do "nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds." The rules don't say whether concentrating is more strenuous than those things, so the DM would have to decide. (At my table you can concentrate through a short rest, and I believe that is the intended rule.)

Of course, the chicken thing doesn't impact this question one way or the other, just a question of keeping hex up for a long time.

I'm not sure it's that debatable. Concentration doesn't even cost movement or actions while tending wounds does. Concentration being strenuous is adding a contrivance not indicated in the rules to create a restriction.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sure, you straw manned my example and removed the chicken from the situation, and made it look ridiculous.

ROFL ok buddy. Your example is so amazingly bad. It's a whole bunch of effort and ridiculous behaviour to gain 1 spell slot per day, at level 9, when as a Warlock, you have 2 per short/rest - going up to 3 at 11th.

So, it is very common in many D&D play styles that you only get 1 encounter/day. I know, I know. Or even a mere handful without short rests in between.

In that situation, warlocks go from 2 spell slots to 3 using the chicken-hex trick.

In general, carrying hex over between fights saves you 1 spell slot per short rest. That can be huge.

Oh my giddy aunt, is that actually your argument? You think Warlocks getting 3 spell slots instead of 2 in a 5MWD is a problem? Do you? Do you really actually think that?

Because I have a horrifying revelation for you. You're going to want to sit down for this because this might might kill you! Get the percentile dice out for that System Shock check!

Wizards - get this Wizards - get to use ALL their spell slots for a single encounter in a 5MWD!!!!!!!!

All of them! Every single one! So they might get to cast a 5th level spell, 3 4th level spells, 3 3rd level spells, and then god alone knows how many other spells of lower levels!

Yet it's the Warlock doing a bunch of nonsense to both Hex and 2 5th-level spell slots in an encounter that's a "crazy loophole". Yeah. Okay buddy. It's definitely the WARLOCK that's the problem. Not all full casters.

I mean for goodness sake. The Warlock has to just through hoops to create a problem here. Every single other full-caster in the entire game creates a massive problem in the 5MWD just by existing. Warlocks are literally "the least of your problems".

 

[Fenris-77]

I think there's a fair bit of support in literature for Warlocks and Witches and other dark magicians sacrificing chickens to strengthen their magic.

And probably less evidence for using them like a cooler sleeve for a beer so you can drink it later.

 

[NotAYakk]

ROFL ok buddy. Your example is so amazingly bad. It's a whole bunch of effort and ridiculous behaviour to gain 1 spell slot per day, at level 9, when as a Warlock, you have 2 per short/rest - going up to 3 at 11th.

No, it is a clear example of "bag of rats" and sacrificing a chicken with Hex.

That is what this thread is about. If you don't want to talk about "bag of rats" style sacrificing chickens, this thread isn't a place to talk about it.

Oh my giddy aunt, is that actually your argument? You think Warlocks getting 3 spell slots instead of 2 in a 5MWD is a problem? Do you? Do you really actually think that?

Did you actually read what I'd rule on the subject?

Here goes. What did I say I'd rule on the subject?

Did you read why I would rule that way?

Yes? No?

Ok, why would I rule that way?

It isn't hard. You responded to the post only about an hour ago.

Because you seem to be acting as if you didn't read what I wrote, and are instead lashing out in ... anger? I dunno ... at an imagined opponent?

I stated 5 different responses to a Warlock sacrificing a chicken to get a Hex spell slot back for their first encounter. I said I'd do the 5th choice myself, because I didn't see a balance concern with it. that 5th choice was, wait for it, allow it to work.

From that, do you hear me saying that a warlock having 3 spell slots instead of 2 in a 5 MWD is a problem? Do you?

Then why in all that is holy are you posting as if I'm saying that?

My god.

All I am doing is showing empathy for DMs who would rule differently. And you are somehow confusing that with that being my position.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sorry, your faux-indignation is totally undermined by what you actually said:

In that situation, warlocks go from 2 spell slots to 3 using the chicken-hex trick.

In general, carrying hex over between fights saves you 1 spell slot per short rest. That can be huge.

As I've pointed out, it cannot be huge. You're saving 1 slot/day, not 1/Short Rest (it's literally not even arguable - the claim in the quoted post is false). In the most extreme possible scenario, it puts Warlocks behind all full-casters in per-encounter power. The more encounters/day, the less it matters.

This isn't empathy. This bad math and overstatement on your part.

 

[NotAYakk]

Sorry, your faux-indignation is totally undermined by what you actually said:



As I've pointed out, it cannot be huge. You're saving 1 slot/day, not 1/Short Rest (it's literally not even arguable - the claim in the quoted post is false). In the most extreme possible scenario, it puts Warlocks behind all full-casters in per-encounter power. The more encounters/day, the less it matters.

Yes, +50% slots can be huge. I'm not sure how it cannot be. Going from 2 slots to 3 slots is a large increase in relative Warlock spellcasting power. The boost is even large in an absolute sense; a top-level spell slot is a non-trivial resource on a daily basis (at least from level 5-10; as noted, this doesn't work on level 6+ "slots", nor before level 5).

Warlocks until level 11 are starved for spell slots. Having an extra one in your first encounter of every day is a very nice boost, even if you go by the 8 encounters/2 short rests model. That is going from 5 spell slots to burn on non-hex spells to 6, a 20% increase in non-cantrip spell power.

And carrying over slots over short rests can save you 1 slot per short rest. Which is also huge. As noted above, some DMs object to maintaining concentration over short rests. The impact of that decision on warlocks who use Hex past level 4 is a large one -- a full spell slot every short rest. Which is why I said "carrying over spell slots" and "in general", as opposed to the specific case of "hex-chicken-kill".

At level 11-16 this trick matters less. On a 0 rest day day, it is 2 vs 3 non-Hex slots. On a 2-rest day, it is 8 vs 9 non-Hex slots. Still pretty large however.

The Rod of the Pact Keeper is a coveted Warlock item, and Hex-Chicken-Kill-Rest both gives you back 1 spell/day and doesn't cost you an in-combat action to get it (because you do it long before combat). (It doesn't let you do a "+1 spell slot above max" encounter however).

The Rod can be used between combats, unless you are in a one-encounter day, to save on the action cost.

Oh, and they stack.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Simple house rule. If a PC is Concentrating on something during a rest, they do not gain any of the normal benefits from that rest because they are too busy maintaining that Concentration. They can't rest and recover because they are too focused on that one thing. And if they do try, then Concentration checks are needed during the rest for them to split their focus between Concentration and recovery.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes, +50% slots can be huge. I'm not sure how it cannot be.

Because percentages don't really mean anything here. Actual power does, and the total gain in power to your Warlock is minuscule. It's not a 50% power gain. I'm not sure it's even a 10% one, given how important cantrips are for Warlocks, and especially give this only matters 5-10.

Also, power is relative to other party members and monsters. The "one encounter" day benefits every single full caster more than it does Warlocks. Warlocks benefit from tons and tons of encounters.

And carrying over slots over short rests can save you 1 slot per short rest.

Yeah, which has literally nothing to do with the chicken shenanigans you're suggesting. So why include it with that? Once you're 5th you can get 8hrs barring Concentration fail, and 24hrs barring sleep and Concentration fail. Until you're 5th the chicken deal doesn't even work. And I'd argue it was close to pointless after 11th. So you've basically got 6 levels where, if you're willing to be a freaky chicken-choker, you can get ONE (1) extra spell slot per day.

LOOK OUT WIZARDS, here comes Warlock!

 

[jaelis]

So the question now just boils down to, can you cast hex on a chicken? The thought being that you do that first thing in the morning so that if you get to rest before actually fighting, you get an extra spell for the day.

I mean, to me that seems like a pretty classic bag-of-rats technique... you're supplying your own non-threatening creature to use as a target to get some effect that you want. As such I'd say any DM is in their rights to say no.

I also think the benefit is pretty marginal here. How often do you take a short rest before any encounters? And more importantly, you're giving up your concentration slot for the day.