D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[gyor]

You mean like this?

View attachment 121632

Johnathan

Exactly, perfect.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Trade is a vastly greater part of history and what has shaped cultures than war. War just gets the best stories, because trade is kinda boring.
Most changes in culture where one culture influences another is from trade.

When it comes to significant reorganization of the social and political order, it's usually war. When you've got nomadic raiders and agrarian city-states butting up against each other (which is germane to the orcs vs humans discussion), the reconciliation of differences is rarely peaceful.

Even when it's peaceful, the bigger and more powerful your trading partner, the more political strings come attached to the trade.

 

[Zardnaar]

When it comes to significant reorganization of the social and political order, it's usually war. When you've got nomadic raiders and agrarian city-states butting up against each other (which is germane to the orcs vs humans discussion), the reconciliation of differences is rarely peaceful.

Even when it's peaceful, the bigger and more powerful your trading partner, the more political strings come attached to the trade.

It's also who writes the history books.

Vikings and Mongols/ nomads traded more than war but guess what they're remembered for.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

It's also who writes the history books.

Vikings and Mongols/ nomads traded more than war but guess what they're remembered for.

I mean, is it though? Despite the fact that those people did more than just conquering, and the general fact that they won a lot, they're still pretty much only know for the violent stuff.

Like, what do you see more; Genghis Khan, the terrifying warlord, or Temujin, the man who reconnected the Silk Road?

 

[MGibster]

I'm not surprised by the demographic makeup of D&D 5E players and it's nice to think the game will continue even after I've stopped playing (I don't imagine I'll play forever). The game has certainly changed quite a bit over the last few decades and I expect it will continue to change as its audience does.

 

[Mirtek]

If a mosquito looked like a human and had powers of speech but was otherwise unchanged we wouldnt think they would be any less worthy of killing on sight. Whats more they would be MORE worthy of killing on sight.

I guess that depends on the time they appeared. If they had been around too early in human history they would probably be extinct due to humanity putting them down.

If they were too appear today, I think we would work out some compromise with them. E.g. them feeding only on preserved blood. I guess we'd have those being paid more than today and thus a lot more humans willing to sell blood.

That obiviously assumes a small enough population that human capability to give blood is enough to keep them fed. Otherwise it's back to extinction.

 

[Tonguez]

Also orcs are "twisted elves" in tolkein's work. Elves are inspired partially by certain european caucasian groups and certain european fey/spirits. Basically because elves are white, orcs are HORRIBLY (spiritually) MANGLED white people. Not mixed race (unless uruk. Then they are half elves. Shocker.). They are white people of an elvish variety who are super physically screwed up (in a non racial way) by magic and probably some inbreeding. Definitely magic though. Tolkein also specified orcs were capable of good but that morgoth and sauron's mystical influence on them was incredibly strong. In other words they are completely and totally just very screwed up elves who are mystically enslaved and this twisted their being.

One of the beliefs of 18th century Social Darwinisn that lead to Blumenbach et al to develop the idea of Human Races was that European Caucasoids were the epitomy of Human development and that other “races” were spiritually and physically devolved forms of that Ideal. I dont know if Tolkien was applying that beleif when he made the Orcs are devolved form of Elf, but it certainly doesnt help the argument either.

Anyway because I dont like DnD alignment or humanoids being shoe horned I did sit to ponder on Orcs being both stronger than and equally as intelligent as humans yet seemingly unable to dominate human groups. Then I read a theory that the reason why Neanderthals were unable to compete with Homo Sapiens was due to having less developed social skills - Neanderthals used Charisma as their dump stat.
Anyway that provided a solution - Orcs are naturally aggressive and lacking in the inclination to form social bonds that dont involve intimidation and fear. Thats why they remain chaotic and are so readily dominated by Dark Lords and Orc bosses. Aggression and intimidation is the only way Orcs can interact (their brains are wired that way) and even the raising of whelps tends to be brutal. Orcs can try to establish large tribes and even settlements, but they tend to quickly disolved amidst petty squabbles, feuds and infighting.
The other trait I relied upon to differentiate Orcs from Humans was their hide - Orcs are tough, they have thick hides which is great for combat but also means that Orc fingers lack the tactile sensitivity of humans and other races and thus Orcs have reduced fine dexterity needed for crafting intricate mechanisms. In other words Orcs can hammer out crude blades, but cant do needlework or riveting to make good armour or other precision tools.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

One of the beliefs of 18th century Social Darwinisn that lead to Blumenbach et al to develop the idea of Human Races was that European Caucasoids were the epitomy of Human development and that other “races” were spiritually and physically devolved forms of that Ideal. I dont know if Tolkien was applying that beleif when he made the Orcs are devolved form of Elf, but it certainly doesnt help the argument either.

Anyway because I dont like DnD alignment or humanoids being shoe horned I did sit to ponder on Orcs being both stronger than and equally as intelligent as humans yet seemingly unable to dominate human groups. Then I read a theory that the reason why Neanderthals were unable to compete with Homo Sapiens was due to having less developed social skills - Neanderthals used Charisma as their dump stat.
Anyway that provided a solution - Orcs are naturally aggressive and lacking in the inclination to form social bonds that dont involve intimidation and fear. Thats why they remain chaotic and are so readily dominated by Dark Lords and Orc bosses. Aggression and intimidation is the only way Orcs can interact (their brains are wired that way) and even the raising of whelps tends to be brutal. Orcs can try to establish large tribes and even settlements, but they tend to quickly disolved amidst petty squabbles, feuds and infighting.
The other trait I relied upon to differentiate Orcs from Humans was their hide - Orcs are tough, they have thick hides which is great for combat but also means that Orc fingers lack the tactile sensitivity of humans and other races and thus Orcs have reduced fine dexterity needed for crafting intricate mechanisms. In other words Orcs can hammer out crude blades, but cant do needlework or riveting to make good armour or other precision tools.

I actually think there is a good possibility neanderthals were smarter than homo sapiens (in a way that would basically mean in d&d their mental stats would all be equal or slightly higher) and that the main 2 reasons we were able to replace them are that we bred faster and climate change.

But i understand your point.

All that said, i said i wasnt going to comment on orcs in this thread for a while. If you would like to engage me on orcs anyway, let me know in dms.

 

[Aldarc]

So if you had to choose another culture to mine for a book similar to Oriental Adventures or the new Greek-themed book, what would it be and why?

Nusantara (e.g., Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Brunei, etc.), Halstatt Culture (i.e., Proto-Celts), the Islamic Golden Age, and Ancient Levant and Mesopotamia.*

* I see a lot of TTRPGs set in Mesopotamia, but finding those inspired by Mesopotamia seem harder to come by. I'm not a fan of settings in "Real Earth-but-Fantasy" or those lying in the uncanny valley of pseudo-real world settings (e.g., 7th Sea).

Basically, the common conception of the Middle Ages is so completely nonsensically incorrect, just basing a world on actual Medieval History would make it feel like a fresh and new fantasy world.

Though it is Renaissance England, there is Magonomia for Fate, which takes historical notions of magic (e.g., theurgy, alchemy, witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, etc.) for its system.

As such, I'm still inclined to have it be "nature" in my world and games. Because of the needs of the game. You need to accommodate some level of murder-hobo behavior and it's preferable to have easy action without moral consequences. In the same way Buffy the Vampire Slayer purposly chose to have vampires lose their souls, to avoid questions of whether vampires could be redeemed and if slaying them immediately was good or bad.

I'm inclined for the easier solution: avoid race-based monocultures and racial essentialism. So one can have multiple cultures of orcs - just as there are multiple cultures of humans, elves, dwarves, etc. - which is also how it is in Eberron.

Much how Millennials would have started withAD&D and chaffed under the restrictions in their teens and early twenties. Then go homebrew crazy in 3e and 4e as they hit their late 20s and 30s.

Maybe slightly off here. I'm an older Millennial, but I didn't start playing until the middle of high school, and that was in 2000 when 3rd Edition was released. Though some gamed earlier with AD&D, the larger chunk of Millennials would likely start in the 3era or 4era.

I still just don't get how people don't see generational shifts in gaming.

World of Warcraft has a kingdom of trolls who use Mayan inspired architecture, Caribbean religion, and have West African accents and ride dinosaurs.

You'd never see that back in the day.

Games like WoW and a lot of games that reexamine "monster races" or "humanize" them through playability are definitely contributing to generational senses of fantasy. I think for the better.

 

[Krachek]

WoW and warhammer have pretty modern view of monster races. In this matter DnD setting are often stuck in old stuff from the 80’s. but overall DnD never pretend to be medieval, the section about Government in the DM guide is definitively not medieval centric.