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D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
According to the demographics shared by WotC 40% of D&D players are already Generation Z.

(Millennials are 40-25.)

I'd be shocked if 40% of D&D players are 10-25. I could be wrong though. I can't find the age demo info right now.

But even so, my point is Gen Z is still too young to have the buying power to influence the game, push designers, and create content. The influencers are millennials and o;der. And I speculate that the increases of nonEuropean and nonMedieval culture and modern thoughts on class and race are due to millennials getting jobs in the 00s.
 

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I'd be shocked if 40% of D&D players are 10-25. I could be wrong though. I can't find the age demo info right now.

But even so, my point is Gen Z is still too young to have the buying power to influence the game, push designers, and create content. The influencers are millennials and o;der. And I speculate that the increases of nonEuropean and nonMedieval culture and modern thoughts on class and race are due to millennials getting jobs in the 00s.
Its actually even more absurd than you thought.

Gen z are only up to age 24 currently. So its even less years.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'd be shocked if 40% of D&D players are 10-25. I could be wrong though. I can't find the age demo info right now.

But even so, my point is Gen Z is still too young to have the buying power to influence the game, push designers, and create content. The influencers are millennials and o;der. And I speculate that the increases of nonEuropean and nonMedieval culture and modern thoughts on class and race are due to millennials getting jobs in the 00s.
Teenagers and people in their early 20s buy a lot of stuff. Their desires strongly influence the purchasing of older demographics, as well.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'd be shocked if 40% of D&D players are 10-25. I could be wrong though. I can't find the age demo info right now.
Here you go. Prepare for shock!

 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Teenagers and people in their early 20s buy a lot of stuff. Their desires strongly influence the purchasing of older demographics, as well.

I know they do.
But I kow I purchased a lot more D&D stuff as I got older. 25 year old Minigiant has more money than 15 year old Minigiant. And 15 year Minigiant used as most free stuff as much as I can get.
 

We buy more crap, but there's not as many of us. A huge mistake entertainment companies often make is overly focusing on aging hobbyists who buy an enormous amount of stuff per person, while ignoring the vast, vast pool of new, younger entrants to the market who buy comparatively little. This causes their market to die by attrition.
 

Which goes back to some of my previous comments.

Though, in terms of D&D, it does pose an interesting question: how do you reconcile the fantasy idea that some beings are inherently evil with real-world sensibilities?

In Tolkien's writing, orcs were automatically predisposed to darker desires because they were corrupted and created that way. To some extent, D&D follows some of that thinking, but not entirely.
(In the 5E story of Gruumsh, the gods of the other races seem like the bad guys to me.)
Contemporary orcs do not necessarily follow that template.

What of demons and devils? Supposedly, those beings are inherently evil and do not have the free will to choose otherwise. However, there are D&D stories of "redeemed" devils and demons.
I've thought about that a lot recently, and wondered if if it should become a blog...

Now, for intelligent humanoids (drow, duergar) it's a bad idea to have them be inherently evil. Even predominantly evil has its issues as they're classically dark skinned. I think we've seen a move away from that in recent editions. Duergar and drow are a medium grey now, and much more light skinned than in the past.

But this gets harder with more "savage" humanoids like goblins or orcs. The question of whether they're inherently evil and uncivilized or if that is the product of upbringing. If they're just the humanoid equivalent of "undomesticated", like wolves or foxes, and no amount of careful raising will prevent them from being a wild animal.

There's no easy answers here. It's horrible all the way down.

If it's nurture, then all the humanoid civilizations have a long history of oppressing goblins and orcs. There's shades of colonialism and systemic abuse. And adventurers going into orc/goblin villages and killing everyone are perpetrating hate crimes and ethnic cleansing.
And man is that not a good take.

If it's nature than it avoids the above. Orcs may not be inherently evil, but they're inherently chaotic: irrational monsters that you can kill for the good of innocents.
However having it be their nature invokes some pretty horrible real world analogues, where certain peoples were considered less advanced or evolved. How orcs are seen is a little too close to comfort with how people of African decent were seen just a hundred and fifty years ago. (If not even more recently.) This can be really upsetting for some people.

This makes it really awkward to have disposable action scenes. Because it is still a game and you want to have the occasional combat. For some players, that's their main reason for playing.
There are some inherently evil beings (demons and devils) along with beasts and undead. But even then things get fuzzy. There are good vampires in D&D. Who hasn't seen the druid try and tame or negotiate with an owlbear? Should the pack of wolves be murdered because they're hungry: they have just as much right to live.
It can works with regular humanoids, but even then it's because no one stops to question the bandits or ask if the minions of the Evil Overlords were volunteers or conscripts (or victims of propaganda). Let's face it, if any PCs ever stopped to ask why someone became a highway man, the answer isn't going to be pleasant.

As such, I'm still inclined to have it be "nature" in my world and games. Because of the needs of the game. You need to accommodate some level of murder-hobo behavior and it's preferable to have easy action without moral consequences. In the same way Buffy the Vampire Slayer purposly chose to have vampires lose their souls, to avoid questions of whether vampires could be redeemed and if slaying them immediately was good or bad.
 

Oofta

Legend
What @Jester David just said is my POV as well. No need to rewrite it all, but orcs (and other monstrous humanoids) serve a purpose in my campaign. They're the bad guy. If (as in my campaign) they're always evil it makes certain aspects of my game simpler. I came to a similar conclusion about nature vs nurture a long time ago, and nurture is the worse choice.

I want my campaigns to be fast moving and fun until I explicitly do not want them to be. So yes, I want explicit bad guys. Just like the nameless "guards" that the protagonists of action cinema take out without a second thought.
 

I'd be shocked if 40% of D&D players are 10-25. I could be wrong though. I can't find the age demo info right now.

But even so, my point is Gen Z is still too young to have the buying power to influence the game, push designers, and create content. The influencers are millennials and o;der. And I speculate that the increases of nonEuropean and nonMedieval culture and modern thoughts on class and race are due to millennials getting jobs in the 00s.
Relinking for ease of reference:

screen-shot-2020-04-25-at-12-42-49-am-png.121347


Buying power has very little to do with it, because RRPs are irregular sources of income. It's small one-time purchases.
Keep in mind, people 16-25 likely have jobs, even if part time. So buying $150 of books is not impossible.
And groups only really need one person with the books to play, and might even pool their funds.
And people <20 likely don't have rent or other expenses and obligations sucking up money.

And that's without considering allowances, Christmas and birthday gifts, stolen PDFs, or even playing with parents. Or grandparents...

"But even so, my point is Gen Z is still too young to have the buying power to influence the game, push designers, and create content."
Tell that to Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, which hit #1 on the Amazon charts. Tell that to all the organized play games, that are shifting focus to be less tactical problem solving and more narrative. The people speaking in character for long periods and drawing fan art rather than reading optimization guides.

It's the Millennials and Generation X that have less influence on the game.
People working jobs with long hours that limit their opportunity to play, or are starting families and have to worry about childcare.
 

Eyes of Nine

Everything's Fine
Why are we still stuck in this era?

I mean, not that I’ve ever seen a fantasy work that accurately portrayed the Middle Ages, regular cleaning/bathing rituals, advanced is art, music, and sciences, and all, but still, why? What is so interesting about it? There are most of 20k years to draw upon for roleplaying inspiration before the advent of the cannon, across the globe.

What is so interesting about the (very much pseudo) medieval tableaux that keeps the community stuck at that well?

So, you could say Urban Fantasy is fantasy set in non-Medieval milieu. Like World of Darkness for example. Which takes place across the world.

Starfinder is this weird amalgam of futuristic and medieval; but definitely not European.

D&D however, yes I think it hews to some pseudo EuroMedieval setting.

I think one reason we stick with Medieval is due to not working harder for more modern weaponry combat. Although I've heard some folks like the firearm rules in the DMG...

The European part, I think people have sort of pounded on that topic here on this thread a bunch, I don't have much to add at this point. Except to ask - is it "European" or "Feudalism" / "Colonialism" that's at the heart of D&D?
 

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