D&D General The Transition of a D&D World into the Industrial Era

[MGibster]

How would the industrial revolution have an impact on the way magic items are created?

 

[Mercurius]

Haven't read the thread (yet), but one thing to consider is that magic might actually negate the need for industrial development. A fantasy world with D&D ubiquity might--or likely, even--see a focus on "magic industrialization." I personally find it more interesting and even realistic to envision how magic could be mass produced and industrialized. Eberron touches upon this to some extent, but you could go a lot further. Think of how magical entities, especially elementals, could be leveraged as power sources for production and war, or minor magical items ("trinkets") that accomplish the same things as early industrial products like lights, the telegraph, etc.

(I'm working on a long essay on fantasy world demographics for non-Medieval settings, and touch upon some of this there. I might post it here or ask @Morrus what the best way is to share it with the ENWorld fam).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don’t think magic advancement would replace tech advancement unless magic is vastly more widely available than it is even in Eberron.

Any kingdom with noticeably fewer magic users than a rival is gonna hire alchemists (ie, scientists) to develop more powerful weapons that don’t require a magic user to wield and aim toward new weapons that can be trained with a timetable comparable to a spear/axe/sword and shield, and that cost not much more than a sword, at most, per unit.

Now, if more than, say, 70% Or more of people can learn basic magic, I can see a stagnation of tech.

 

[Tonguez]

Any kingdom with noticeably fewer magic users than a rival is gonna hire alchemists (ie, scientists) to develop more powerful weapons that don’t require a magic user to wield and aim toward new weapons that can be trained with a timetable comparable to a spear/axe/sword and shield, and that cost not much more than a sword, at most, per unit.

Now, if more than, say, 70% Or more of people can learn basic magic, I can see a stagnation of tech.

Depends on whether the Physical laws of the Fantasy World also work according to Earth like ones. We know in DnD World that Elemental Energy is real, that Alchemist can refine quintessence and create magical effects.

The prime example here is Lightning and Electricity - On Earth we know that copper and zinc in an acid will create an electric current however there is no guarantee that the same thing will happen in Fantasy Land. In Magic World Lightning is an Elemental energy that is summoned from the energized Plane of Air.

I also dont recall any evidence that Lightning in DnD can be conducted along wires.

Similarly do we know that a gunpowder weapons will work? iirc Alchemist Fire isnt violently explosive, nonetheless we do know that alchemist can create grenades that explode, so explosions at least can occur But can they be directed in a way that propels shells?

 

[Mercurius]

I don’t think magic advancement would replace tech advancement unless magic is vastly more widely available than it is even in Eberron.

Any kingdom with noticeably fewer magic users than a rival is gonna hire alchemists (ie, scientists) to develop more powerful weapons that don’t require a magic user to wield and aim toward new weapons that can be trained with a timetable comparable to a spear/axe/sword and shield, and that cost not much more than a sword, at most, per unit.

Now, if more than, say, 70% Or more of people can learn basic magic, I can see a stagnation of tech.

Well what are the main areas of technological advancement? On cursory thought, I'd say: warfare, mass production (especially of food), travel/transport, and communication, and later on information. All of these could be accounted for in a "magical revolution:"

Warfare: Rather than muskets and cannons, you could have wand-wielding wizards casting magic missiles and fireballs. Monsters instead of tanks, etc.

Mass production: Alchemists, artificers, and wizards creating constructs seems quite plausible. "Magical factories" with enslaved creatures, etc.

Travel/transport: Teleport and other spells. Permanent Gates, sky-ships, etc.

Communication: Sending stones and other devices and spells accomplish this quite easily. Similarly with information.

Now maybe the RAW wouldn't account for every little detail, but it would be fairly easy to fill in the gaps. A lot of it depends upon the specific campaign world, and how rare magic is. But my point is that if magic is common enough--and it doesn't even have to be as common as you say--then industrial tech might not be ever imagined, as it wouldn't be necessary.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Depends on whether the Physical laws of the Fantasy World also work according to Earth like ones. We know in DnD World that Elemental Energy is real, that Alchemist can refine quintessence and create magical effects.

The prime example here is Lightning and Electricity - On Earth we know that copper and zinc in an acid will create an electric current however there is no guarantee that the same thing will happen in Fantasy Land. In Magic World Lightning is an Elemental energy that is summoned from the energized Plane of Air.

I also dont recall any evidence that Lightning in DnD can be conducted along wires.

Similarly do we know that a gunpowder weapons will work? iirc Alchemist Fire isnt violently explosive, nonetheless we do know that alchemist can create grenades that explode, so explosions at least can occur But can they be directed in a way that propels shells?

Any violent explosion can make a gun. Or an engine.
If you want to hand wave tech just do so, don’t try to jump through hoops to get there. Eberron just says, “in this world magic advances more than tech, and is part of every day life, and no one is really trying to advance mundane tech.” It doesn’t try to make that make sense upon deep examination, it just asks the reader to either run with it, or change it in their campqign

Well what are the main areas of technological advancement? On cursory thought, I'd say: warfare, mass production (especially of food), travel/transport, and communication, and later on information. All of these could be accounted for in a "magical revolution:"

Warfare: Rather than muskets and cannons, you could have wand-wielding wizards casting magic missiles and fireballs. Monsters instead of tanks, etc.

Mass production: Alchemists, artificers, and wizards creating constructs seems quite plausible. "Magical factories" with enslaved creatures, etc.

Travel/transport: Teleport and other spells. Permanent Gates, sky-ships, etc.

Communication: Sending stones and other devices and spells accomplish this quite easily. Similarly with information.

Now maybe the RAW wouldn't account for every little detail, but it would be fairly easy to fill in the gaps. A lot of it depends upon the specific campaign world, and how rare magic is. But my point is that if magic is common enough--and it doesn't even have to be as common as you say--then industrial tech might not be ever imagined, as it wouldn't be necessary.

You’d have to wildly change how available those magics are to have them create a “revolution”.

Anyone could ride a train across the continent in 1900. Once built, the train doesn’t have to have a super high price for a passenger, and anyone can be trained to operate it. Do you propose a world in which magic isthat common? If so, we agree. Make it so 70% or more of the population can cast spells, and magic can fully replace tech.

 

[Coroc]

Any violent explosion can make a gun. Or an engine.
If you want to hand wave tech just do so, don’t try to jump through hoops to get there. Eberron just says, “in this world magic advances more than tech, and is part of every day life, and no one is really trying to advance mundane tech.” It doesn’t try to make that make sense upon deep examination, it just asks the reader to either run with it, or change it in their campqign


You’d have to wildly change how available those magics are to have them create a “revolution”.

Anyone could ride a train across the continent in 1900. Once built, the train doesn’t have to have a super high price for a passenger, and anyone can be trained to operate it. Do you propose a world in which magic isthat common? If so, we agree. Make it so 70% or more of the population can cast spells, and magic can fully replace tech.

The approach "Magic for everyday commodities and more" is not new with Eberron btw.

There is one occurrence in Greyhawk material I remember, where it is said, that the chimney in a wizards home is fueled by a permanent wall of fire. And I think levitation elevators were a thing already in Menzoberranzan (For the non drow (slaves) who need to reach upper platforms of the typical Stalagmite houses there).
Pemanent light is being present in multiple dungeons for all kinds of settings.
Halruaa had airships way before Eberron, although with other principles.
Lord Robilar rides a mechanical horse, Rary has developed automatons which, besides being made of brass, really have much similarity to Eberrons iron defenders.

 

[Bohandas]

The approach "Magic for everyday commodities and more" is not new with Eberron btw.

There is one occurrence in Greyhawk material I remember, where it is said, that the chimney in a wizards home is fueled by a permanent wall of fire. And I think levitation elevators were a thing already in Menzoberranzan (For the non drow (slaves) who need to reach upper platforms of the typical Stalagmite houses there).
Pemanent light is being present in multiple dungeons for all kinds of settings.
Halruaa had airships way before Eberron, although with other principles.
Lord Robilar rides a mechanical horse, Rary has developed automatons which, besides being made of brass, really have much similarity to Eberrons iron defenders.

and don't forget Murlynd, the god of magitech and steampunk.

 

[Mercurius]

Anyone could ride a train across the continent in 1900. Once built, the train doesn’t have to have a super high price for a passenger, and anyone can be trained to operate it. Do you propose a world in which magic isthat common? If so, we agree. Make it so 70% or more of the population can cast spells, and magic can fully replace tech.

Again, I don't think the 70% number is necessary. 70% of people in the early industrial era--or now--don't know how to program or build mechanical constructs. We all know how to use an iPhone, turn on a light, etc, but that's not the equivalent of spell-casting. I can imagine a "magical-industrial" era in which there are magic guilds which control the means of production, but create devices--from glowing orbs to trains to sending stones--that everyone is able to use. In major devices you might need a spell-caster to keep something running or in control, but in everyday objects you don't need them.

But it really depends upon what you want--the ubiquity of magic, what can be created, and how closely you feel you need to align with the RAW. I'm just saying that it is possible to build a plausible magical-industrial world in which only a small number of people are spell-casters.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The approach "Magic for everyday commodities and more" is not new with Eberron btw.

There is one occurrence in Greyhawk material I remember, where it is said, that the chimney in a wizards home is fueled by a permanent wall of fire. And I think levitation elevators were a thing already in Menzoberranzan (For the non drow (slaves) who need to reach upper platforms of the typical Stalagmite houses there).
Pemanent light is being present in multiple dungeons for all kinds of settings.
Halruaa had airships way before Eberron, although with other principles.
Lord Robilar rides a mechanical horse, Rary has developed automatons which, besides being made of brass, really have much similarity to Eberrons iron defenders.

And yet wands still require a spellcaster to operate.