D&D 5E How do you handle someone who is not surprised but is unaware of any threats?

[Umbran]

The DMs issue was that he wasnt prepared to explain to the PCs what was triggering the initiative check. Why ready an action to do something, when there is no information to go on as to why you need to?

My point being that (just by the name of the feat- Alert) the implication is that the character does get some information just before the round begins.

Example (how not to do it from a DM perspective)

DM (noting hidden monsters in ambush): OK, as you walk through the forest, suddenly the whistle of arrows can be heard in the air, and you see movement from the trees all around you. A black fletched arrow thunks into a tree near the Wizard. You're all surprised. Roll initiative!

At which point we should note that the arrow gives an indication of direction - everyone else may be sussing out that point, but the Alert character gets that instantly, and probably should be told where, along its line of flight, the enemy might be hiding.

The enemy is still hidden or obscured - you can't directly target them individually with spells, and you'd be at disadvantage if you attacked before they show themselves.

Or, alternatively - there's noting that the arrow implies an attack has already been made. Does the attacker have the ability to attack and hide in the same round? If not... they are standing right there, where the Alert person can see them...

 

[Umbran]

Alert does not prevent surprise. It prevents the effects of surprise.

Technically, reading strictly, this is incorrect. It explicitly says that the character cannot be surprised, not that the character cannot suffer the effects of surprise.

 

[jgsugden]

I handle it like this:

DM: "Everyone roll for initiative."
Player 1 (Drina, Vola): "Why?"
DM: "If I told you, it'd ruin the surprise."
Player 2 (Tom, Cassius): "I can't be surprised, I have the..."
DM: "Alert feat, I know. You're not surprised. Everyone roll for initiative."
...
DM: "OK, Initiative order is set, Tom, Cassius is first. The hairs on the back of Cassius' neck leap up. Roll an insight and perception for me."
Player 2: "Insight - 13, Perception 4".
DM: "You don't see anything in that instant to warn you what is wrong, but something is off. You feel very sure you and your allies are in danger. You're just not sure from what."
Player 2: "Cassius leaps across the table and puts a knife to the throat of the negotiator. He readies an attack to stab him if the negotiator's guards attack."

 

[Fenris-77]

All 'cannot be surprised' means is that they don't lose their action on the first round of combat. They could still get shot by an arrow from ambush. I think some people are reading 'surprise' in the general sense of the word, which is not the intention of Alert.

 

[clearstream]

Technically, reading strictly, this is incorrect. It explicitly says that the character cannot be surprised, not that the character cannot suffer the effects of surprise.

In fact, it is literally incorrect but technically correct. The term "surprised" is a keyword defined in the body of the rules, with concrete mechanical effects. So it is strictly technically correct to refer to it in the way I have. The crucial facts of the mechanic - keyed to by the term - are the effects. To say "can't be surprised" means "the surprised keyword can't apply to the character", about which the crucial facts are the effects.

To see how that is right, imagine that contrary to my reasoning, "surprised" referred not to the keyword, but to some natural language meaning. That would not necessarily entail the mechanical effects of surprise (we just ruled that out) and might instead mean that the character cannot show astonishment (while conscious... maybe they can while unconscious, who knows?!)

 

[clearstream]

All 'cannot be surprised' means is that they don't lose their action on the first round of combat. They could still get shot by an arrow from ambush. I think some people are reading 'surprise' in the general sense of the word, which is not the intention of Alert.

There are some other effects. Surprised creatures can't use a reaction until after their first turn, and some abilities like assassination look for the keyword in order to apply their effects.

 

[clearstream]

My point being that (just by the name of the feat- Alert) the implication is that the character does get some information just before the round begins.

The names of rules are usually not counted as part of the mechanics. The reason is that sometimes designers have to be creative with names to distinguish effects / effects-packages. If names were counted as part of the mechanics, that would add a lot of baggage.

At which point we should note that the arrow gives an indication of direction - everyone else may be sussing out that point, but the Alert character gets that instantly, and probably should be told where, along its line of flight, the enemy might be hiding.

Alert does not give any additional information. As another poster pointed out, imagine a low Perception character, surprised (only not) by invisible, inaudible, scentless beings. They can't have any information about those beings, and yet they are not surprised. That is because to be surprised is to have the surprised keyword applied to one.

The - can't be surprised - aspect of Alert is not dependent on noticing anything. It triggers, even if there is nothing to notice. Under the principle that unwritten rules should not be assumed (because if one did, where would that end?!) Alert does nothing other than what it says it does. (Caveat, you can change that, if you want, but then you are changing it!)

 

[Fenris-77]

There are some other effects. Surprised creatures can't use a reaction until after their first turn, and some abilities like assassination look for the keyword in order to apply their effects.

Sure, my point was more about what 'surprised' means in terms of what's happening in that first turn. The enemy needs to actually do something in order to trigger the initiative roll. Not in the first turn, but prior to rolling for initiative. So there should be very few occasions where the Alert character has nothing to act in response to. There have been a bunch of 'spidey sense' type answers in this thread, and I think those ignore some important aspects of what occasions the move from free play to initiative-based combat in the 5E rules.

 

[aco175]

There have been a bunch of 'spidey sense' type answers in this thread, and I think those ignore some important aspects of what occasions the move from free play to initiative-based combat in the 5E rules.

I agree that the turn based system does not do combat well in D&D over the editions. A lot of movie magic or real world aspects cannot be handled right. Nobody surrenders when a crossbow is leveled on them, they just draw their sword and attack. Even if they loose initiative or you give surprise, they know the PC is only taking a minor damage.

I tend to give more breaks to the PCs and the players by default. Taking the feat to be cool at something means that they are not as effective at something else and I should not look for ways to penalize that.

 

[Umbran]

The names of rules are usually not counted as part of the mechanics.

This is not 3e. As we see in this case, sometimes you have to look behind the RAW to see the intent.

Alert does not give any additional information.

It is not possible for it to have its stated function without it giving additional information.