D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

look, I'm exhausted, I'll say this: I'm tired of people mischaracterizing removing the book from the store as "no one can read it". Kwan isn't stupid, he knows that even if WotC took the book off the store people will find a way to read it. the point is WotC as the sole owners of the copyright of the book should not profit off sales of the book or enable others to read it. you can still read it. you can still use it too. it's just WotC will take the stance that yeah the book is problematic and they'll no longer endorse it. also I'm pretty sure if anyone can, it's WotC who's allowed to decide what is and isn't okay as a D&D book.

If you are exhausted then you are not required to participate. I feel like I have been very reasonable and tried to address all your points. Not trying to be a jerk to you or anything like that (and I am making an effort to keep this as a respectful and polite discussion). I essentially responded to this post in my other post, so I won't comment further here.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

you don't even need it to run your 1E game in an Asian setting, you can take a different, better written and researched supplement and use that instead, and non-weapon proficiencies made their way into 2e so you could just crib it from that PHB. OA isn't on the level of a core book.

But I might want to run my 1E game in an Asian setting. Why should a poster on twitter be the one who decides for us all whether we can have access to the one big official Asian setting and rules book TSR put out during 1E?

Yes, I could just crib from 2E. I like 2E. That wasn't my point. I mentioned it because the poster had said something about its historical value. Some people read these books to see the evolution of the game over time. And if you can't access OA, you won't see how NWPs evolved in D&D. You can see the result of that evolution in 2E, but you are not going to understand how they first appeared and how they changed from there.
 

To be fair, we can toss them on the pile with assassin, barbarian, bard, druid, monk, witch, and warlord in the "classes with problematic names" list.

Under certain circumstances anything with any cultural connotations can be problematic to someone. If this is a concern if you are doing class level its best to roll way back to 0E and just use Fighter and Magic User as even Rogue and Cleric have issues with some people.

The odds of your odd Asian player being offended by Samurai or Ninja classes or European descended players being offended by Witch Cleric or whatever is slight. Its not like Naruto is bothersome to Japanese people after all and its full of Ninja

The real key in my experience as someone who as has gamed with people from many cultural and ethnic backgrounds including mixed is to not be a jerk. Its not harder than that.
 

But I might want to run my 1E game in an Asian setting.
If you wanted to run a 1E game in an Asian (Well, east Asian) setting, I'd strongly recommend against OA.

Wanting OA for the idea of adding some class complexity? Sure. Seeing what a mess KT is? Sure. Actually using it to run a game in the perceived setting? That's where problems start because for all it does, it isn't good at it.
 

I mentioned D&D books because of this post, but my statement was meant to apply to any RPG dealing with cultural or historical material:





There are still people who use oriental adventures in their 1E and 1E retroclone games. Like I mentioned before, I used 1E and 3E oriental adventures, greatly modified, to run 3rd edition wuxia-inspired campaigns (often taking classes here, mechanics there, reskinning them and using them for different kinds of martial heroes. The martial styles in both editions were useful as a foundation for what I was interested in doing. One of the big things OA introduced was Non-weapon proficiencies. So it is important in terms of the development of the game.

But there are also plenty of people who run the game straight as is, for a more pastiche setting.



I don't think it is a binary. Obviously anyone who has delved deeper into these topics, and has stayed with the hobby this long, is going to use newer games, be more aware of distinctions and information that OA didn't address or missed. But that doesn't mean you have to stop using OA. You can go back to it and run it sometimes (for a variety of reasons). Personally I sometimes like pastiche settings that are a bit gonzo. OA was basically like putting samurai movies, kung fu films and western inspired asian material (like Shogun or even the Karate Kid) in a blender. Now that isn't going to produce something terribly authentic. But it isn't meant to. It is just meant to be fun and to reflect the kind of media people found exciting at the time.

And clearly if you are trying to do something that is like historically based Tang Dynasty or genre specific (like wuxia) OA isn't really intended for that kind of focused flavor (though like I said, I found plenty of stuff to kitbash from both versions of OA). Before I was super into wuxia though, I was just interested in martial arts in general (doing both traditional and sport MA). And in those days, I found OA useful for running a D&D style campaign that had martial arts in it.

Random musings.

As a kid, I had my fair share of Ninja fascination. So I sympathize.

I became fascinated with Wuxia from the movie, Hidden Dragon Crouching Tiger.

Academically, I admire the I-Ching and its related philosophical Daoism, and know something about it. I was sad to be told that Daoism is increasingly extinct in China, and that one is more likely to come across it in the Chinese diaspora communities.

In my games, I havent built an East Asian region. If I were to do a historically-informed Ninja-esque character, I would use the Rogue class straightforwardly to build it. Probably the Assassin archetype. Make sure the gymnastic/stealth tropes are upto snuff. Unless I was actually in a Japan-esque setting, I would probably avoid the word "ninja". If I were to do a mythologically accurate ninja, I would do more research.

In highschool, a friend of mine is a Chinese American, who gamed with us. Interestingly, his background is from a Christian Chinese family. But, heh, he himself is a hardcore American (to the point of rebellion), and there was no chance of getting a Chinese-esque game from him.

@Dire Bare linked an article about how the fantasy setting of Avatar The Last Airbender, gets it right. Fire/Japan, Earth/China, Air/India, and Water/Inuit are prominent inworld identities. I admire all of these cultures for different reasons. It is cool that these nations appreciate Avatar. The point of the article is, the authors were intimate with the histories of these nations, thus the fantasy versions were more grounded and more realistic, and more authentic, while at the same time, allowing individuals to be unique individuals. I will keep this article in mind.



Now, you yourself are doing actual martial arts training, so you probably have some authentic exposure to reallife tradition. At the least, your games can probably talk about martial fighting styles with some intimacy and accuracy.
 
Last edited:

If you wanted to run a 1E game in an Asian (Well, east Asian) setting, I'd strongly recommend against OA.

Wanting OA for the idea of adding some class complexity? Sure. Seeing what a mess KT is? Sure. Actually using it to run a game in the perceived setting? That's where problems start because for all it does, it isn't good at it.

I understand it isn’t authentic or historically accurate. But if you want to a pastiche campaign inspired by a variety of Asian martial arts and swordplay genres, with a bit of western media inspired by Asian cinema thrown in (which I occasionally don’t mind playing) it can fit. Not Everything to be focused, accurate, or historical. I play more authentic settings as well. But I am saying this does offer a flavor peoplemay want in some 1E campaigns. Perhaps other posters don’t like that style, that is totally fine. But shouldn’t each of us be able to decide if we want to make use of OA or not for ourselves?
 

.



Now, you yourself are doing actual martial arts training, so you probably have some authentic exposure to reallife tradition. At the least, your games can probably talk about martial fighting styles with some intimacy and accuracy.

I do but movie martial arts and real world martial arts are different. It took me a while to realize that in RPGs, I am looking more for cinematic martial arts that I can be more creative and inventive with. So I enjoyed tinkering with martial arts mechanics more when I let go of my real world MA knowledge.
 

I do but movie martial arts and real world martial arts are different. It took me a while to realize that in RPGs, I am looking more for cinematic martial arts that I can be more creative and inventive with. So I enjoyed tinkering with martial arts mechanics more when I let go of my real world MA knowledge.
Heh, it is a relief that Wuxia is a modern pop culture thing. It is already a playful creative art among the insiders that create these stories.

So watching their shows, movies, graphic novels, and so on, seems a legitimate tradition to become intimate with. Stick to the tropes within this pop culture, and it seems ok? If you violate any sacred memories, at least you can blame them?
 

So watching their shows, movies, graphic novels, and so on, seems a legitimate tradition to become intimate with. Stick to the tropes within this pop culture, and it seems ok? If you violate any sacred memories, at least you can blame them?

I disagree a bit here. I think there is a place for fidelity to the genre (and there have been times when I've done that). But I also think there is a place for 1) taking a genre, tropes or culture in wild new directions or 2) adding to the genre because it is a living genre. For instance, the matrix makes something entirely new using a lot of Kung Fu and wuxia tropes. But wuxia itself isn't existing in a vacuum. If you watch a lot of wuxia movies they blend other genres into them. You see traces of spaghetti western, gangster movies, and even james bond in some wuxia (and in wuxia stories). I don't see anything wrong with taking the genre as a foundation but then adding new things to it.
 

1) taking a genre, tropes or culture in wild new directions

Sure, but if a setting doesnt want to use genre/tropes/culture in an accurate way, then it does well to avoid any reallife names like "Wuxia". The game is asking for problems concerning appropriation and misrepresentation. At the very least, the setting must avoid linking the stolen tropes to offensive parts of game.

• Dont borrow what one doesnt understand.
• Dont describe a reallife cultural term in a way that is false.



2) adding to the genre because it is a living genre

Sure, but "adding to a living genre" presupposes that one is an insider within the living genre. Thus the one is intimate with it, and knows what one is talking about.





A movie that comes to mind is Kill Bill. This was a kind of gonzo movie colliding tropes of white American samurai, Japanese mafia, and some smattering of authentic sacred traditions? I dont know how Japanese citizens tend to respond to this movie. But it seems like the kind of movie that needs to know what it is doing and exactly what kind of poetic licenses one can get away with.
 

Remove ads

Top