D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Haldrik]

So what if I feel intimate with it - but you don't think I'm intimate enough with it?

If people are being sincere and respectful, then disagreements from within a culture can be fun and constructive.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

okay first of all it's laughable to assume everyone is gonna go out of there way to read other books about the game they're about to play. I know some people are HUGE NERDS about D&D and making their settings, but that's not everyone.

So you dismiss the assertion that you can always do more and representative reading to improve your knowledge and yet some magical Asian setting can be written? Every single D&D book ever written can have the same type of complaints leveled against it are being used for OA. There are lots of thread of people outraged and offended about them. For things I like, I actually do make the effort.

If I had not switched to Runequest right before that book came out and decided to use it, there would have been no one in my 10-12 player group (typical AD&D party size) that would have known about the offense part of the book. No Asians and other than me starting to read Musashi to get better at sword fighting, none of us were into Japanese or other Asian culture. We did have a Taiwanese guy join our group but by then I had switched to running Champions. He was pretty vocal and finishing medical school so was not dumb. I am sure he would have pointed out the bad Chinese tropes had I run it with him in the game.

What exactly is the magic wand that you propose to wave to make it all better? Even OA had Japanese players that read the book and gave suggested edits to improve it and yet there are still complaints about how Japanese are portrayed in it. Even though nothing in the book says it is accurate or perfect or even a good representation of the actual culture.

My friend in Shanghai was fine with it. He got decent bit parts in big movies as well as steady work in the TV shows and got to direct small film projects. Hard to make a steady living as an actor. And he liked living in Shanghai.

 

[Haldrik]

towards a harmonious exchange and inter-mixing

From my perspective, I feel the goal of humanity is to figure out how each identity group can both preserve its own identity and learn how to coexist with other identity groups.

This is a "practice", rather than a "science", because each identity group is unique, and has its own history, strengths, and needs.

With regard to ethnic groups, I admire Jews, Druze, Jainists, and others, who have developed cultural skills that make it possible to preserve identity while cooperating whole-heartedly with other identity groups.

I feel other identity groups can learn from groups like these for how to do this.



With regard to "white supremacists", it is a painful irony. If only they would understand how much damage their hatespeech is doing to "white" ethnic groups. European cultures are so profoundly ashamed of these supremacists, that entire European identity groups seem eager to commit suicide in an attempt to disassociate themselves from such supremacists.

The human species needs to censor any kind of supremacist group anywhere. Hatespeech must end. Today people can by handguns. Tomorrow people can buy biological and nuclear weapons of mass destruction. Who knows what technology will make possible?

Hatespeech endangers the survival of the human species.



With regard to identity groups. Groups mix. Each group needs to figure out how to "adopt" the other into the groups family.

Each group adopts the other in different ways. Jews have the ancient aboriginal custom of a "Ger", who is a Nonjewish member of the Jewish community. In addition, an outside can become fully Jewish by conversion. I think this strategy is genius. It both preserves the Jewish identity and can even preserve Nonjewish identities within it, for members who wish to remain distinctive.

Other tribes have other customs to adopt outsiders.

Thinking of each group as a family helps conceptualize how to preserve the unique family heritage, and welcome new members into it.

A nation state like France utilizes citizenship and language as a way to adopt the other into the French family. And so on. These are all complex issues.

An American can simultaneously belong to several ethnic groups, including America as a unique ethnic group.

 

[Haldrik]

I agree.

RPGs are a microcosm of all of this. The way forward, in my opinion, is both through honoring different cultures and traditions, but also open and free creativity. I think it is possible to do both.

The goal is to figure out how to optimize between conflictive forces.

We want to accurately represent other cultures and traditions ... yet at the same time avoid stereotypes.

And thirdly, we want to PLAY with these cultures and traditions in new and surprising ways ... to keep them as living cultures and traditions that continue to evolve and imbue meaning.

The D&D game is almost a spiritual discipline for how to get reallife right.

 

[Haldrik]

Is a D&D book really the best place to learn this stuff though? I have no problem with some RPG books making an effort to be accurate and informative. But they don't all need to be. There is a place for pastiche, for historical romance, for gonzo off the wall mishmash of different flavors from cultures. Straight forward accuracy can definitely work but so can these other approaches. Some RPG books are meant to be fun and entertaining and may want to approach these kinds of cultural details lightly. I think when it comes to appropriation I just don't find it a convincing concept. Obviously if a book is engaging in blatantly insulting stereotypes or something that is one thing. But that is very different from borrowing from a culture an re-imagining cultural content in a new light. I think if we continue in this direction of having rigid rules about how you can use culture in art, games, etc; we are going to end up in a very bad place, where people are no longer really exchanging culture and where art is less vibrant. I am just not finding this whole approach healthy or conducive to people truly connecting with one another and with stepping outside their own culture.

I havent talked about the D&D book.

As far as I can tell:
• Oriental Adventures is very important for "archival purposes" historically.
• I hope all D&D gamers have games that have moved beyond it, so no one actually wants to use it.

Exactly what to do about the book, I am unsure.

I appreciate the discussions that this book is provoking.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I havent talked about the D&D book.

I mentioned D&D books because of this post, but my statement was meant to apply to any RPG dealing with cultural or historical material:

The thing is, many D&D gamers do want to learn. So presenting false misrepresentative information can be counterproductive. Especially, if the appropriation is insulting or profane.

As far as I can tell:
• Oriental Adventures is very important for "archival purposes" historically.

There are still people who use oriental adventures in their 1E and 1E retroclone games. Like I mentioned before, I used 1E and 3E oriental adventures, greatly modified, to run 3rd edition wuxia-inspired campaigns (often taking classes here, mechanics there, reskinning them and using them for different kinds of martial heroes. The martial styles in both editions were useful as a foundation for what I was interested in doing. One of the big things OA introduced was Non-weapon proficiencies. So it is important in terms of the development of the game.

But there are also plenty of people who run the game straight as is, for a more pastiche setting.

• I hope all D&D gamers have games that have moved beyond it, so no one actually wants to use it.

I don't think it is a binary. Obviously anyone who has delved deeper into these topics, and has stayed with the hobby this long, is going to use newer games, be more aware of distinctions and information that OA didn't address or missed. But that doesn't mean you have to stop using OA. You can go back to it and run it sometimes (for a variety of reasons). Personally I sometimes like pastiche settings that are a bit gonzo. OA was basically like putting samurai movies, kung fu films and western inspired asian material (like Shogun or even the Karate Kid) in a blender. Now that isn't going to produce something terribly authentic. But it isn't meant to. It is just meant to be fun and to reflect the kind of media people found exciting at the time.

And clearly if you are trying to do something that is like historically based Tang Dynasty or genre specific (like wuxia) OA isn't really intended for that kind of focused flavor (though like I said, I found plenty of stuff to kitbash from both versions of OA). Before I was super into wuxia though, I was just interested in martial arts in general (doing both traditional and sport MA). And in those days, I found OA useful for running a D&D style campaign that had martial arts in it.

 

[FireLance]

Creating a D&D class called "crusader" or "jihadist" ... how could this possibly go right?

Hopefully, the boilerplate disclaimer also covers the Book of Nine Swords.

 

[Panda-s1]

But there is a big difference between "This book should be available so everyone can decide for themselves if it is okay to use and read", versus "This book should be taken down because I have decided it is too morally and for people to use and read".

Nothing about this means I am speaking for others. I am just saying, I don't trust one person, or a small group of people, to make that call for everyone else. I think it is entirely possible for two reasonable and good people to look at a book like OA and react in totally different ways. And I think there is a very big spectrum of reaction. It doesn't have to be a dichotomy between embracing everything that OA stands for, and rejecting OA entirely.

look, I'm exhausted, I'll say this: I'm tired of people mischaracterizing removing the book from the store as "no one can read it". Kwan isn't stupid, he knows that even if WotC took the book off the store people will find a way to read it. the point is WotC as the sole owners of the copyright of the book should not profit off sales of the book or enable others to read it. you can still read it. you can still use it too. it's just WotC will take the stance that yeah the book is problematic and they'll no longer endorse it. also I'm pretty sure if anyone can, it's WotC who's allowed to decide what is and isn't okay as a D&D book.

There are still people who use oriental adventures in their 1E and 1E retroclone games. Like I mentioned before, I used 1E and 3E oriental adventures, greatly modified, to run 3rd edition wuxia-inspired campaigns (often taking classes here, mechanics there, reskinning them and using them for different kinds of martial heroes. The martial styles in both editions were useful as a foundation for what I was interested in doing. One of the big things OA introduced was Non-weapon proficiencies. So it is important in terms of the development of the game.

what kind of argument is this? if they're using it for their game odds are very likely they already own the book. if WotC takes it off the store it's not like their copies are gonna burst into flames.

you don't even need it to run your 1E game in an Asian setting, you can take a different, better written and researched supplement and use that instead, and non-weapon proficiencies made their way into 2e so you could just crib it from that PHB. OA isn't on the level of a core book.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Your comments on Wendigo sound interesting.



You mentioned Thunderbirds as if "deities".

My goodness. Already wrong.

This is small example of how cultural appropriation and misrepresentation happens. But elsewhere misrepresentations can happen in massive ways.

The thunderbird is literally listed under "thunder gods."

Native American Indian Thunder Legends from the Myths of Many Tribes

Collection of Native American thunder stories from various tribes.

www.native-languages.org

Are you referring to the fact that different tribes assign different degrees of divinity, ranging from "bird so big its wings make the sound of thunder" to "shapeshifting god who has demigod children"?

There isn't any one thunderbird. It's an archetypal figure. There's a unique version for every tribe.

Please educate me because I have no idea what you're saying.

I think we are reaching a point with this, where however well-intentioned, people are making it so no one even wants to venture outside their own culture or knowledge. Is this kind of response to someone being innacruate about something encouraging anyone to explore other cultures? I see this attitude a lot these days and I think it does a lot more to stop people form wanting to learn. It also creates a bar for creative efforts, where things always have to be 100% accurate and can't be changed or reimagined outside their original culture. I don't see that as healthy for anyone

They have a point. Most of the time beings from these tribes' stories are used to terrorize white people and divorced from their cultural context. For example, the zombie deer monster that Euro-American pop culture calls a "wendigo" does not preserve Ojibwe culture in any way. It's gotten so pervasive that some educational youtube channels are mistakenly depicting the zombie deer as if it's accurate to the Ojibwe culture.

 

[Bedrockgames]

what kind of argument is this? if they're using it for their game odds are very likely they already own the book. if WotC takes it off the store it's not like their copies are gonna burst into flames.

It isn't an argument. I was responding to someone who was asking about what the book brought to the table for people and had mentioned its historical value.

But other people who don't have the book might want the experience I am describing, and so would want access to the book (and they might not want to download it illegally (personally I never download pirated copies of games).

Also, even if I have it, I could lose it. My PDF could go away if my computer crashes.