D&D 5E (2014) 5e Surprise and Hiding Rules Interpretation

[jayoungr]

The second section about the DM determining the circumstances that allow a character hide is Rules as Written though - you can find it in the errata for the PHB (or in the text of the second edition)

Fair, but you sounded like you're really planning to crack down on it. Especially with your original statement that says "hidden" means that the target can't even be aware that a potential attacker exists. If that requirement is loosened, then there would be a lot more potential situations where hiding would be possible.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

As I see it, RAW the rule is "The DM determines who might be surprised." The rest is commentary.

And once again "doesn't notice a threat" can be read as "doesn't notice something" or as "doesn't notice something and recognize it as a threat". Strict adherence to the first reading is required to make surprise entirely a function of hiding.

I think if the second sentence giving the surprise determination rule were commentary, it would have been made more plain. Say if that sentence started with "For example, the DM might compare...". But it asserts this as an imperative: "the DM compares..."

I think what the first sentence, "The DM determines who might be surprised." means is that the DM determines if the circumstances are appropriate for either of the opposing sides to hide for an ambush.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Fair, but you sound like you're really planning to crack down on it. Especially with your original statement that says "hidden" means that the target can't even be aware that a potential attacker exists. If that requirement is loosened, then there would be a lot more potential situations where hiding would be possible.

I'm engaging with conversation among my players in my group where I've DM'd off and on for 7 years, so it's not a matter of cracking down (I don't run that type of campaign), but of trying to come to a common agreement on the exactly what the rules are intended to mean.

Currently we have this:

• Definition of being "Hidden" : Being "hidden" from an opposing creature means that the other creature was not able to notice your presence as a potential threat.
• Definition of "noticing a threat" : When used in the context of surprise or hiding, noticing a threat means being aware of the presence of something believed to be able to take the attack action.

But I'm persuaded that knowing location should be included in the definition, but we're still mulling that over.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Wow! Obviously your group has issues with this, requiring a full discussion during session 0. I approve of taking the necessary steps to fill this out, but would also give it to your group for discussion.

The only thing I would majorly take issue with (I didn't read all the FAQ) is the starting location. The way this is laid out the players will know that a combat is coming, even if no threat is present, because you showed them a battlemap. I would give a description of the area (with or without a map, depending on if you use them for non-combat areas), then ask them what they're going to do. After they do so, then you place them on a map according to the actions chosen and the plans of the hidden creatures.

It's not a confrontational setting - my group has been meeting for over 7 years, and I've DM'd off and on for over half that time. But, we're re-examining how we've played in the past and trying to get a complete understanding of the rules as written.

The document we're coming up with is a work in progress. Here's what we have now for the procedure for the start of combat after incorporating our discussions to-date:

1. The DM determines if it is possible for the party to hide for the start of combat : The DM determines the circumstances under which hiding is possible, taking into consideration the availability of cover in the combat zone, the state of awareness or alertness of opponents at the start of combat, light conditions, whether the party was already in plain view of their opponents, and anything else the DM considers relevant. Either the entire party engaging in the first round of combat will be able to hide prior to combat or none of the party will be able to do so.
2. If hiding is possible, players decide pre-combat if their character will be hiding : When a combat is about to begin, if it will be possible for characters to hide the DM will ask the players which of them wants their character to be hidden at the start of combat, and any who do will make a Stealth check. Note the all of the characters in the party have to be hidden prior to combat to have a chance to surprise any opponents, because otherwise the unhidden character will be noticed by all opponents as a threat.
3. DM determines who is surprised : The DM next determines who is surprised by comparing the Stealth checks of anyone who will be hiding with the passive Perception scores of all of the creatures on the opposing side (and vice versa). Individual creatures on either or both sides may be surprised. Any character or monster whose passive perception is less than the lowest Stealth of all opponents doesn't notice any threats, and is surprised at the start of the encounter. Any character or monster who notices the presence of even one opponent (one threat) is not surprised. Characters or creatures who are surprised can't move or take actions on the first turn of combat.
4. The DM asks for marching order and location preferences : The DM reveals the combat zone map if the characters are not already located within it, asks the players what their marching order is, and asks what they would like their general starting location to be for the combat. It does not matter whether that general location of preference is reachable in a round with the character's movement speed or not.
5. The DM decides where characters are located : Taking into consideration marching order and the player's preference for their character's starting location, the DM will position the characters such that they are hidden from the opposing creatures with passive perceptions lower than their stealth rolls. The path that a character took to get to that starting location is not part of the combat and is narrated by the DM to reflect which characters will be trying to hide. Once a character reaches their starting position, they will always be hidden from the appropriate opponents as per their Stealth check. If there is not sufficient cover represented on a map to reflect how they are hidden, that cover will be narrated by the DM as a "theater of the mind" addition to the map.
6. Characters hidden at their starting locations are as per the Hide action : Once combat commences, for characters whose players wanted them hidden at the start of combat, it is as if those characters have previously taken the Hide action with the same Stealth check as was made for surprise determination.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Here's our updated FAQ list - some items have been added, and after discussions we've changed our opinion on some others:

• When does combat start? Combat starts when two opposing parties are aware or are about to become aware of the presence of each other, and the DM judges that at least one side seems reasonably inclined to do violence (or some other undesired action) to the other.
• If one party is parlaying with an opposing party, can I attack unexpectedly and get the first turn in combat? No, activity in combat is always ordered by initiative. As soon as you tell the DM you'd like to attack, initiative is rolled, and your allies and your opponents who have greater initiative scores would act before you do. These other combatants could do an Insight check to determine that your character intends to attack on their turn.
• Does all of one side of an impending combat need to hide to have surprise? Yes. If even one opponent (one threat) is noticed by a member of the opposing side, then that creature is not surprised. All opposing creatures will perceive the presence of an unhidden party member as a threat and will therefore not be surprised. Since surprise is determined prior to the DM establishing the location of the characters and monsters, characters who do not declare they are hiding will be assumed to have their presence perceived by their opponents in determining who is surprised.
• Can I initiate surprise by deceiving an adjacent opponent into believing I'm actually an ally and then suddenly attacking? No, because surprise requires hiding and your opponent still notices you as something with the ability to attack regardless of your deception. This would be an initiative roll, but if your opponent who had been successfully deceived previously (Insight vs Deception check) wins initiative, they may choose to do nothing to counter your attack on their turn if they momentarily believe the initiation of your action is due to something else other than commencing an attack.
• Can rangers using the Hide in Plain Sight ability lie in wait and initiate surprise on an ambush? Yes, because their opponents might not notice their presence as something with the potential to attack which is what defines them as hidden.
• Can a ranger with the Hide in Plain Sight ability attack at advantage using the Unseen Attackers and Targets rule? Yes. Rangers with this ability may be in plain sight, but they are not seen because their presence is not perceived. Camouflage disrupts the visual processing of the eye, in effect giving the ranger a very limited kind of invisibility. When using this ability, opponents with passive Perceptions lower than the ranger's Stealth check not only do not notice their presence, they cannot see them without actively searching.
• Can my character hide and initiate surprise by successfully impersonating an inanimate object and then attacking, even if I'm in plain view? Maybe, in very specific circumstances if your opponents might then not notice your presence as something that could attack. Perhaps a halfling in plain view might hide among a collection of dolls, or a character might hide in plain view among a collection of wax figures for example. The precedence would be the gargoyle's False Appearance trait, but the DM would decide if that's possible given the circumstances and what penalty to the Stealth check might apply given the difficulty of remaining motionless.
• Can my character who is not a ranger hide in plain sight by camouflaging themselves? Maybe, since there is the ranger's ability, Hide in Plain Sight, as precedence, although doing so would not provide the other bonuses associated with the ranger ability and would carry all the limitations. The DM would decide if this is possible given the circumstances, how long it might take to set up the camouflage, and what penalty to the Stealth check might apply given the character's amateurish attempt and the difficulty of remaining motionless.
• Can my character hide for surprise by disguising themselves as a rock? Yes, but only by the disguise keeping your opponents from perceiving your presence by physically hiding under that disguise. In this case, the disguise is no different than if you crawled under or behind a crate or box.
• Can I hide in a crowd of people and then initiate surprise by attacking opponents even if they would see me approach from the crowd? The DM would decide based on the circumstances. The DM can choose to allow a character to continue to be hidden as they approach a creature if circumstances would have that creature being distracted, as by a crowd (PHB p. 177, Hiding side box).
• Can creatures with the False Appearance trait such as mimics or gargoyles hide and initiate surprise on attacking when they are in plain view? Yes, because their special trait allows them to be indistinguishable from an inanimate object, which means their presence might not be noticed as something with the potential to attack.
• Can creatures with the False Appearance trait such as mimics or gargoyles hide and then gain advantage as per the Unseen Attackers and Targets rule when they are in plain sight? Yes, but only until they move. The mimic or gargoyle can be hidden in plain sight because their False Appearance trait allows them to remain motionless impersonating an object, and their presence as a threat is not noticed. In effect for those whose passive perceptions are less than the gargoyle's Stealth check, the gargoyle is in plain sight (visible), but their presence as something that could attack is not seen, which makes them hidden.
• If my character chose to start combat hidden, can they attack the creatures who didn't perceive them on the first round of combat at advantage as per the Unseen Attackers and Targets rule? Yes. If you choose for your character to be hidden at the start of a combat, the DM will position your character so that they are hidden (in almost all cases both unseen and unheard) by the creatures whose passive perception scores are less than your Stealth check. Your character can try to determine on their turn which of their opponents they notice can also see them and which cannot, possibly making an Nature check to assess the terrain in uncertain cases.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I think if the second sentence giving the surprise determination rule were commentary, it would have been made more plain. Say if that sentence started with "For example, the DM might compare...". But it asserts this as an imperative: "the DM compares..."

I think what the first sentence, "The DM determines who might be surprised." means is that the DM determines if the circumstances are appropriate for either of the opposing sides to hide for an ambush.

Yes if you want to read it so narrowly as to make surprise as a condition that can only ever be generated by the stealth v. perception contested check minigame, then you can certainly read it that way. That approach essentially lays out a clear path towards generating surprise for players, so I understand how it would be more appealing to some people.

I prefer surprise to just be a DM discretionary condition applied wherever it seems appropriate to simulate the fact that sometimes in life creatures are caught off guard at the beginning of a fight and thus are slow to act, something that covers both broader and narrower circumstances than literally not seeing the attacker.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

I'm engaging with conversation among my players in my group where I've DM'd off and on for 7 years, so it's not a matter of cracking down (I don't run that type of campaign), but of trying to come to a common agreement on the exactly what the rules are intended to mean.

Currently we have this:

• Definition of being "Hidden" : Being "hidden" from an opposing creature means that the other creature was not able to notice your presence as a potential threat.
• Definition of "noticing a threat" : When used in the context of surprise or hiding, noticing a threat means being aware of the presence of something believed to be able to take the attack action.

But I'm persuaded that knowing location should be included in the definition, but we're still mulling that over.

You know, the reluctance I'm having to adding location to our definition of Hiding, is that the word "location" doesn't appear anywhere in the side-box on Hiding on p. 177 of the PHB. Words I do see are "signs of your presence", "can't be seen", "make noise", "signs of passage", "stay alert", "creature notices you". The closest thing to location there is "you give away your position".

I'm contemplating the following:

• Definition of being "Hidden" : Being "hidden" from an opposing creature means that the other creature was not able to notice your presence or determine your position as a potential threat.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Yes if you want to read it so narrowly as to make surprise as a condition that can only ever be generated by the stealth v. perception contested check minigame, then you can certainly read it that way. That approach essentially lays out a clear path towards generating surprise for players, so I understand how it would be more appealing to some people.

I prefer surprise to just be a DM discretionary condition applied wherever it seems appropriate to simulate the fact that sometimes in life creatures are caught off guard at the beginning of a fight and thus are slow to act, something that covers both broader and narrower circumstances than literally not seeing the attacker.

I understand and I think that's a fine approach. Just to frame what my group is doing, we're trying to figure out what our interpretation of Rules as Written is, at least for this subset of the rules ... not only to come to a consensus on what we believe the designers meant by the rules, but also to make sure we feel that interpretation is consistent. It doesn't mean that we might not decide to deviate from that later, but having a consensus on what we're deviating from seems like a good thing.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

Yes if you want to read it so narrowly as to make surprise as a condition that can only ever be generated by the stealth v. perception contested check minigame, then you can certainly read it that way. That approach essentially lays out a clear path towards generating surprise for players, so I understand how it would be more appealing to some people.

I prefer surprise to just be a DM discretionary condition applied wherever it seems appropriate to simulate the fact that sometimes in life creatures are caught off guard at the beginning of a fight and thus are slow to act, something that covers both broader and narrower circumstances than literally not seeing the attacker.

Actually, though, I think I'm in disagreement with what you say surprise is meant to simulate. I think surprise is meant to simulate an ambush - characters lying in wait and jumping out to attack. There's numerous cases where the word Ambush is tied to surprise in the Monster Manual, from the gargoyle's description to the Kenku's Ambusher trait. So, I think that's the archetype the 5e designers were going for.

 

[Jon Gilliam]

More discussions ensued among our group! I brought up the insights of all of you here - thank you for your help! I think we've arrived at a final interpretation of the Hiding rules that we all agreed on in our group. We punted a bit, as we went with a more operational definition, and based on people's feedback here we agreed that the rules intend to give more authority to the DM. Does anyone here feel this is not where it needs to be yet?

Hiding

• Definition of being "Hidden" : Being "hidden" from an opposing creature means that you could attack that creature without them being able to perceive that your attack is coming.
• Definition of "noticing a threat" : When used in the context of surprise or hiding, noticing a threat means perceiving the presence of something believed to be able to take the attack action.
• The DM decides when characters or monsters are hidden: The DM decides whether or not you are hidden from another creature by taking into account the following considerations:
  • any specific traits or abilities
  • whether the creature can see you
  • whether the creature can hear you
  • whether the creature can perceive your presence in any way
  • whether the creature is distracted
  • whether the creature is able to determine your position
  • whether the creature perceives your presence as a potential attacker