D&D 5E Orcus vs Raven Queen: The saga

[Matrix Sorcica]

That is because Exandria is based on the Dawn War pantheon from 4e. It doesn't really apply to the rest of 5e, but I don't use "official" lore anyway. I suggest we all just use what works for us, "official" lore has little to no impact on your game.

Except when the official lore makes it a chore to adapt things to your own table and you don't have the time/inclination to go full homebrew.

 

[dave2008]

Except when the official lore makes it a chore to adapt things to your own table and you don't have the time/inclination to go full homebrew.

Where/how does that occur? I have never had an issue, but I go 90%+ homebrew with my worlds.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I do not believe RQ is a greater god any more or less than any of the gods in 4e. As far as I can tell (it has been a while since I was deep in 4e lore - which I love by the way), all of the gods given stats in 4e are just "gods" in such that they don't really ever provide a distinction. They definitely are not divided into such groups in the PHB or DMG, but I can't be sure it wasn't listed somewhere else, but I don't think so. I will say I did an extensive search on this subject (back when I played 4e) and determined there was not "official" evidence of lesser or greater gods. If you have evidence otherwise, please pass it on as I looked for it for a long time.

The only distinction I could find was between gods and exarchs. There are several gods in other editions that are listed as exarchs in 4e.

It is also worth noting that per the DMG, and mentioned elsewhere as well, primordials killed many gods in the Dawn War. And none of the primordials we have stats for get above lvl 35.

DMG pg162
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Regarding the RQ and Orcus in Prince of Undeath. It is not an avatar, she is the real deal. From the adventure's conclusion:

View attachment 123668

It is important to note the for the final battle Orcus is "empowered," but this only takes him to lvl 34. Therefore, there is as much, if not more, proof to suggest that RQ is canonically among the weakest of the gods in 4e, around lvl 34 or maybe 35.

UPDATE: I knew I remembered reading something about demigods and lesser deities. I found it in the Manual of the Planes. In the section on Avandar it mentions "demigods and exarchs" as entities that attend the two "greater powers" (Corellon & Sehanine) and in the section on Celestia it mentions Moradin is the first among equals (between Moradin, Kord, & Bahamut) and that he governs over a court of "lesser deities and powerful exarchs." Then in the section on Hestavar it mentions: "Three greater deities (Pelor, Erathis, & Ioun) make their homes..."

So there is mild evidence of a distinction, but IMO in 4e the terms "greater powers" and "greater deities" are synonymous with the term "god" and the terms "lesser deities," "demigods," & "exarchs" are basically synonymous with each other. We are definitely not given a clear picture of their differences (between exarchs, demigods, and lesser deities) and they have a wide range of power levels. Also, it is worth noting that if Moradin is an "equal" and a "greater" god than by association you can pretty much put all of the gods with stats in 4e in the "greater" god category. Personally, I don't think that is a significant distinction in 4e.

PS In the official "Scales of War" AP for 4e, Tiamat killed Bahamut (but the PCs can bring him back). So being one level below your foe doesn't mean you can't defeat them, and gave us this pretty epic image:
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Dude, I don't care if there is a technical mechanical distinction called "Greater God" in 4e. I...I know we've interacted enough on these forums for you to pick up that I never, ever, care about this sort of focus on terminology and technical definitions. Ever. Like I regularly leave discussions when they get pedantic because I find it too obnoxious to continue to engage.

That being said, again, that adventure culminates a series of adventures, and delivers on a tension that builds throughout, but it (and the stats for gods in general often do in 4e, and probably in older editions) works against the fiction established elsewhere.

RQ is one of the most important primary deities.

Orcus is empowered, but very importantly, CR isn't an in world thing in 4e. The mechanics aren't the physics in 4e. Orcus is CR 34 so that the story can include a fight with Orcus, and Orcus can kill RQ so that the story can have stakes bigger than the risk of PC death. I'm not arguing about what the adventure says, I'm arguing that it was a mistake of narrative that creates a discontinuity, done for the sake of generating excitement and tension in that adventure.

 

[dave2008]

Dude, I don't care if there is a technical mechanical distinction called "Greater God" in 4e. I...I know we've interacted enough on these forums for you to pick up that I never, ever, care about this sort of focus on terminology and technical definitions. Ever. Like I regularly leave discussions when they get pedantic because I find it too obnoxious to continue to engage.

That being said, again, that adventure culminates a series of adventures, and delivers on a tension that builds throughout, but it (and the stats for gods in general often do in 4e, and probably in older editions) works against the fiction established elsewhere.

RQ is one of the most important primary deities.

Orcus is empowered, but very importantly, CR isn't an in world thing in 4e. The mechanics aren't the physics in 4e. Orcus is CR 34 so that the story can include a fight with Orcus, and Orcus can kill RQ so that the story can have stakes bigger than the risk of PC death. I'm not arguing about what the adventure says, I'm arguing that it was a mistake of narrative that creates a discontinuity, done for the sake of generating excitement and tension in that adventure.

Sorry I upset you, that was not the intent. I was just interested in the source of your belief. I don't put much stock in canon, but I am interested in it. I was sincerely asking where you are getting the idea that RQ is more important / powerful, because you were so emphatic about it: "In 4e lore, she is a Greater God, and is The God Of Death. Full stop." That comment lead me to believe you actually had a source I was unaware of. IIRC, the narrative of 4e tells a different story. IMO, there is enough narrative evidence in 4e to suggest all the gods (the main Dawn War Pantheon) are roughly equal and that they are roughly equivalent to demon lords in power (Demon Lords appear to be weaker mechanically, but not based on the narrative):

• It is in the narrative that Demogorgon slew a god (Amoth)
• It is in the narrative that: "The evil of the Abyss corrupted some of the mighty primordials - Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus..." (MM1 pg 52)
• It is in the narrative that: "...the primordials killed many gods during the great war." (DMG pg 162)
• I see no evidence in the narrative that the RQ is more or less important than any other god in the pantheon. The gods are specially noted as "equals" in Manual of the Planes with the exception that Mordain is "first among equals" (MotP pg 91). It is also noted that Torog is: "...among the most powerful deities" (Underdark pg 8). I take this to mean, in the 4e narrative, that the the Dawn War Pantheon is all among the "most powerful deities."
• Finally, the adventure is part of the narrative IMO, and it is in the narrative of that adventure, Orcus has defeated (or nearly so) the Raven Queen.

FYI, in my games Tiamat is almost always the most powerful god

Finally, regarding the Raven Queen and Orcus, this bit of narrative is interesting (The Shadowfell pg 8)

PS I agree with you that the narrative of 4e often does not align with the mechanics. In the 4e narrative it took 3 gods to imprison the primordial "Maul-Tar;" however, mechanically it is only lvl 35. In fact, the primordials are routinely described as often being more powerful than an individual god, yet none of the stat blocks support that. Or course this supports the idea that the demon lords are as powerful (or more so) than the gods in 4e.

PSS. One thing I really like about 4e lore is that it does indeed contradict itself in many places. It gives the impression of real myth and that nothing in the lore is absolute. In fact, they often explicitly state that the printed lore is one version or one point of view.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sorry I upset you, that was not the intent. I was just interested in the source of your belief. I don't put much stock in canon, but I am interested in it. I was sincerely asking where you are getting the idea that RQ is more important / powerful, because you were so emphatic about it: "In 4e lore, she is a Greater God, and is The God Of Death. Full stop." That comment lead me to believe you actually had a source I was unaware of. IIRC, the narrative of 4e tells a different story. IMO, there is enough narrative evidence in 4e to suggest all the gods (the main Dawn War Pantheon) are roughly equal and that they are roughly equivalent to demon lords in power (Demon Lords appear to be weaker mechanically, but not based on the narrative):

• It is in the narrative that Demogorgon slew a god (Amoth)
• It is in the narrative that: "The evil of the Abyss corrupted some of the mighty primordials - Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus..." (MM1 pg 52)
• It is in the narrative that: "...the primordials killed many gods during the great war." (DMG pg 162)
• I see no evidence in the narrative that the RQ is more or less important than any other god in the pantheon. The gods are specially noted as "equals" in Manual of the Planes with the exception that Mordain is "first among equals" (MotP pg 91). It is also noted that Torog is: "...among the most powerful deities" (Underdark pg 8). I take this to mean, in the 4e narrative, that the the Dawn War Pantheon is all among the "most powerful deities."
• Finally, the adventure is part of the narrative IMO, and it is in the narrative of that adventure, Orcus has defeated (or nearly so) the Raven Queen.

FYI, in my games Tiamat is almost always the most powerful god

Finally, regarding the Raven Queen and Orcus, this bit of narrative is interesting (The Shadowfell pg 8)

View attachment 123683

PS I agree with you that the narrative of 4e often does not align with the mechanics. In the 4e narrative it took 3 gods to imprison the primordial "Maul-Tar;" however, mechanically it is only lvl 35. In fact, the primordials are routinely described as often being more powerful than an individual god, yet none of the stat blocks support that. Or course this supports the idea that the demon lords are as powerful (or more so) than the gods in 4e.

The stat blocks almost never make sense, narratively. They're just there so that you can tell the story where you fight that creature.

IMO, the manual of the planes is...not a great 4e sourcebook. It doesn't usually directly contradict the PHB, but it often changes the perspective on something, which I think makes it a bad source.

Anyway, the gods don't have absolutely dominion over mortals, so it isn't especially telling that RQ can't expel Orcus's followers from Shadowfel.

I had forgotten that Orcus is a corrupted primordial in 4e, though. That is...interesting. I guess it makes sense to have the greatest demon princes be primordials corrupted by the abyss.


Anyway, I also upgrade Tiamat's role in the cosmos. Putting her as basically a glorified devil trapped on the least layer of Hell is just...nonsense, IMO. She should be amongst the most important and powerful deities, to the point that I'd never allow the PCs to be physically capable of directly fighting her. She's part of the cosmos.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I dislike Tiamat as a god, preferring her to be the ur-dragon instead (as powerful as a god in some ways, yes)

 

[dave2008]

I dislike Tiamat as a god, preferring her to be the ur-dragon instead (as powerful as a god in some ways, yes)

That is they way I am heading myself, except I don't know what you mean by ur-dragon. I am treating Tiamat as the Great Dragon (Ruler of All Dragonkind) from M & I of BECMI. She has some of the power of gods, and may even be worshiped, but she is not a god.

EDIT: Is it a MtG reference?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

That is they way I am heading myself, except I don't know what you mean by ur-dragon. I am treating Tiamat as the Great Dragon (Ruler of All Dragonkind) from M & I of BECMI. She has some of the power of gods, and may even be worshiped, but she is not a god.

EDIT: Is it a MtG reference?

Not familiar with MtG.
With ur-dragon I mean the mother of dragons, the first. Like the One from M & BECMI. But should there not be a Bahamut as well (dislike that name, can't decide on another)?

 

[dave2008]

Not familiar with MtG.
With ur-dragon I mean the mother of dragons, the first. Like the One from M & BECMI. But should there not be a Bahamut as well (dislike that name, can't decide on another)?

The way I am thinking of it now is that Tiamat is the Ur-dragon as you put it (your definition jives with the MtG version); however, what we think of as Tiamat and Bahamut are different avatars of the same dragon and there would be a 3rd neutral aligned avatar too. You could say it is Io, but I like the name Tiamat better, but I could be convinced otherwise.

 

[Mirtek]

Note that in 4e lore the demon princes are all former primordials corrupted by the Abyss

Their power is on paar with the deities