D&D 5E Shield Master vs Two Weapon Fighting on a rogue

[FrogReaver]

Shield master won’t cause prone 100% of the time. 2 swords will be better but probably not by too much.

 

[NotAYakk]

TWF: Attack action (shove), bonus action off-hand attack with advantage.
SM: Attack action (stab), bonus action shove.
If DM disagrees with JC, can shove first

So... you don't get much in terms of shove. You get +2 AC, and dex-to-damage.

 

[Oofta]

TWF: Attack action (shove), bonus action off-hand attack with advantage.
SM: Attack action (stab), bonus action shove.
If DM disagrees with JC, can shove first

So... you don't get much in terms of shove. You get +2 AC, and dex-to-damage.

You can't do a shove with two weapon fighting unless you have multiple attacks. You have to attack with a light weapon - a shove is not a light weapon. You also never add ability modifier to off hand attack unless you have the fighting style.

 

[TrueBagelMan]

TWF: Attack action (shove), bonus action off-hand attack with advantage.
SM: Attack action (stab), bonus action shove.
If DM disagrees with JC, can shove first

So... you don't get much in terms of shove. You get +2 AC, and dex-to-damage.

You also don’t lose your movement if the DM allows Aim from cunning action. Are table allows the bonus action first since it makes shield master have some value, since it becomes very situational if it has to go after.

 

[NotAYakk]

You also don’t lose your movement if the DM allows Aim from cunning action.

I don't understand? Both the extra attack from TWF and the shove from SM take your bonus action.

My point is that shove is something you can do replacing your main attack in the attack action, and then follow up with a TWF bonus action attack. This acts almost exactly like SM. Over the optimal case, you lose 2 AC.

 

[TwoSix]

Deleted. What I was talking about wasn't relevant.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't understand? Both the extra attack from TWF and the shove from SM take your bonus action.

My point is that shove is something you can do replacing your main attack in the attack action, and then follow up with a TWF bonus action attack. This acts almost exactly like SM. Over the optimal case, you lose 2 AC.

Twf says when you attack with a light weapon.... shoving isn’t attacking with a light weapon.

 

[TrueBagelMan]

I don't understand? Both the extra attack from TWF and the shove from SM take your bonus action.

My point is that shove is something you can do replacing your main attack in the attack action, and then follow up with a TWF bonus action attack. This acts almost exactly like SM. Over the optimal case, you lose 2 AC.

I meant that if I wanted advantage both take my bonus action. Shield Master I can still move while Aiming as a bonus action makes me lose my ability to move.

 

[NotAYakk]

I meant that if I wanted advantage both take my bonus action. Shield Master I can still move while Aiming as a bonus action makes me lose my ability to move.

Again, that makes no sense.

Aiming bonus action
Shield Master push bonus action
Extra offhand attack bonus action

You can do one of these, and only one.

So you do this:
Attack action (as part of this action, you SHOVE.).
Bonus action -- off hand attack (TWF). Just an attack.

No movement restrictions. Almost exactly the same as a SM shove, but RAW can be done before you attack. And if you do have advantage, you get 2 attacks instead of 1.

 

[Bacon Bits]

So I build a shield Master rogue and I’m wondering if two weapon fighting is better damage wise. The rogue has a +7 in Athletics and has proficiency in heavy armor since are table allows UA. (Eldritch Armor) Now mathematically what is better damage wise? Two separate attacks without advantage or one with advantage?

My instinct tells me the attack roll actually isn't as important as you think. I think it's going to be very close to a wash on most opponents comparing TWF to a single attack with advantage when you have SA damage. Hitting with both TWF attacks adds about 3-4 damage. But you lose the balance if you only hit with the second attack.

However, the shove from Shield Master isn't an automatic success! You need to succeed at the opposed Athletics/Acrobatics check to actually knock a creature prone. Also, some creatures are too large to shove, and others are immune to prone. I think this additional die roll adds a level of failure that means that you almost never want to shove and would rather attack twice. If you're not considering that the rest of your party can benefit from the target being prone... except that being prone is a penalty to ranged. Again, in aggregate it feels like it favors not needing to shove to me. You need two successful rolls and only one is at advantage. It's probably better against a low Str, low Dex target when you've got a melee party.

I would suspect TWF and taking the new UA feat that lets you pick up TWF style would be better than Shield Master in terms of damage, although Dual Weilder might be just as good (it's effectively +1 AC and +1 damage for each hand).