D&D 5E What To Do With Racial ASIs?

[Guest 6801328]

You differentiated them in certain ways that have nothing to do with the race. Their fighting styles and background have nothing to do with the race. Their actual race related differences are marginal ribbons.

Both are human with some stuff. Hell, you might as well just put out only humans and give each PC 10 special ability points to spend. I get to be the human with darkvision, fey ancestry and orc blood. You can be the human with two longswords, trance and relentless endurance.

If I'm reading your response correctly, it means that because they have the same stats...because their racial modifiers haven't been applied to their ability scores...they might as well be human. Is that correct?

If so, let's now give them stats, using RAW racial ability modifiers (pre-modifier stat in parentheses):

Character 1: Orc fighter. Proficiency in Intimidation, Relentless Endurance and Great Weapon fighting style (wields a Maul) Outlander background, speaks Orc and Giantese, and plays the War Drums.
Str: 15 (13), Dex: 14, Con: 11 (10), Int: 15, Wis: 8, Cha: 12

Character 2: Elven fighter. Fey Ancestry and Trance abilities. Dueling fighting style (wields a Longsword). Noble background. Speaks Celestial and plays Dragonchess.
Str: 15, Dex: 14 (12), Con: 13, Int: 15 (14), Wis: 8, Cha: 10


There. Now does one feel more like an Orc and one more like a Half-elf?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Only if you value defense over mobility. I’d actually prefer the Tabaxi wizard in most cases. Pair that speed doubling with haste? So juicy!

And that’s the thing, when the advantages you get from race aren’t so directly tied to your efficiency at fulfilling your class’s role, what advantage you choose over the others says a lot more about what you value. Even (perhaps especially) for a character optimizer.

Thing is, the same could be said for the ability bonuses too, if you weren't so fixated on thinking them as some utterly separate thing. One might prefer the increased resilience that the mountain dwarf brings over the increased casting power of the gnome.

 

[Guest 6801328]

TBH, I do think they’re pretty darn similar, though personally I don’t think having different ability scores would fix the problem.

I agree with you. I think the real differences come in how the character is roleplayed. But I'm responding to people who seem to think that mechanical differences, specifically ability score modifiers, are what make them feel different.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Now does one feel more like an Orc and one more like a Half-elf?

The second feels more like an Orc. He has a better CON and lower CHA. (j/k)

 

[Charlaquin]

Thing is, the same could be said for the ability bonuses too, if you weren't so fixated on thinking them as some utterly separate thing. One might prefer the increased resilience that the mountain dwarf brings over the increased casting power of the gnome.

Sure. The problem I have with that is, regardless of what you value, playing a Gnome makes you better at all the things Wizards do, whereas playing a Dwarf only makes you better at something unrelated to wizarding. Granted, there are some players who will value what dwarves are better at more. But in that case, they’d likely want to play a class that does that thing, rather than a wizard (probably a fighter or a barbarian).

 

[Guest 6801328]

The second feels more like an Orc. He has a better CON. (j/k)

You just, but you're onto something.

I'm awaiting responses from Max and Crimson.

 

[Maxperson]

If I'm reading your response correctly, it means that because they have the same stats...because their racial modifiers haven't been applied to their ability scores...they might as well be human. Is that correct?

If so, let's now give them stats, using RAW racial ability modifiers (pre-modifier stat in parentheses):

Character 1: Orc fighter. Proficiency in Intimidation, Relentless Endurance and Great Weapon fighting style (wields a Maul) Outlander background, speaks Orc and Giantese, and plays the War Drums.
Str: 15 (13), Dex: 14, Con: 11 (10), Int: 15, Wis: 8, Cha: 12

Character 2: Elven fighter. Fey Ancestry and Trance abilities. Dueling fighting style (wields a Longsword). Noble background. Speaks Celestial and plays Dragonchess.
Str: 15, Dex: 14 (12), Con: 13, Int: 15 (14), Wis: 8, Cha: 10


There. Now does one feel more like an Orc and one more like a Half-elf?

Yes. We have a somewhat stronger than average orc and a much stronger than average elf. Even though both are at 15, we know that the elf got fairly lucky to even tie the orc, because orcs are stronger than elves as a race. The bonuses make a big difference.

Let's face it, the only abilities that really say elf are Fey Ancestry and Trance, and the only one that says orc MIGHT be Relentless Endurance. Weapon styles, backgrounds, languages and proficiencies don't. Take away the racial bonuses and you have next to nothing other than looks. It's just one type of human and another type of human.

It's not about the end result(final stats), but the journey to get there(racial bonuses).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure. The problem I have with that is, regardless of what you value, playing a Gnome makes you better at all the things Wizards do, whereas playing a Dwarf only makes you better at something unrelated to wizarding. Granted, there are some players who will value what dwarves are better at more. But in that case, they’d likely want to play a class that does that thing, rather than a wizard (probably a fighter or a barbarian).

This is really weird way to look at things. Do you know which sort of wizards cast most spells? The ones which are alive! The resilience is not irrelevant part of practical wizarding.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Granted, there are some players who will value what dwarves are better at more. But in that case, they’d likely want to play a class that does that thing, rather than a wizard (probably a fighter or a barbarian).

And it's totally valid if some people believe that it's ok or even good for the game to be designed that way. (I disagree, but it's an entirely subjective point.)

What I find totally bizarre is that so many people seem to think:
a) The synergy, or lack thereof, between racial attribute bonuses and classes aren't enough that anybody should be dissuaded from picking the combination that appeals to them
b) And yet those bonuses are so important that their absence, or even floating bonuses, would feel "like playing a human with a mask".

Maybe the answer is to make attributes a complex number (that is, with both real and imaginary components). So your strength might be 16,3i. The imaginary component comes from your race, and isn't actually used for any mechanics, so it can be really big to differentiate pretty-strong Dwarves (2i) from crazy-strong Goliaths (6i). But it's RIGHT THERE ON YOUR CHARACTER sheet, so you can feel like you're mighty. Or superhumanly quick. Or brilliant. Or whatever.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You just, but you're onto something.

I'm awaiting responses from Max and Crimson.

I'm pretty sure I already answered this exact example once. You added them some options that were unrelated to their race, so we can ignore those for differentiation (each could have chosen the same options and these didn't make a big difference anyway,) so what is left is couple of inconsequential ribbons.