Gladius Legis
Legend
Good riddance.At this point the only thing left to do is use the ignore button. Goodbye
Good riddance.At this point the only thing left to do is use the ignore button. Goodbye
And yet you're the one who put conditionals on the Cleric's buffing ability in your anecdote.Your anecdote doesn't carry any more weight than my own, and cherry-picking your circumstances does not result in sound logic. The only justified conclusion is that a cleric is too different from a martial class to make any sort of reasonable comparison.
I'm the one not assuming you have a chance to buff beforehand. If you assume that you can trivially flout the core balancing mechanic of the game - the action economy - then it's no wonder that you found the class to be broken.And yet you're the one who put conditionals on the Cleric's buffing ability in your anecdote.
I'm hardly the first or the only one who noticed the Cleric is broken. CoDzilla has been a thing for more than 15 years.I'm the one not assuming you have a chance to buff beforehand. If you assume that you can trivially flout the core balancing mechanic of the game - the action economy - then it's no wonder that you found the class to be broken.
That reflects poorly on you. It's no reflection whatsoever on the game, itself.
I'm not saying the class isn't broken. I'm just saying, the two aren't comparable. It isn't the case that the cleric is a better fighter, or a worse fighter. Fundamentally, a cleric isn't a fighter, and the two cannot be compared. If you want to play a martial character, then that's sufficient justification to not make a cleric, because it's simply no substitute.I'm hardly the first or the only one who noticed the Cleric is broken. CoDzilla has been a thing for more than 15 years.
Also in the instances the Cleric can't get off a melee buff in the first round, the same Cleric most likely has something else good it can cast.
Irrelevant. "D&D 3.5" is not the same game as "D&D 3.5, plus a specific sub-set of other d20 material." If you want to count supplements beyond the core book, then there are too many possibilities to analyze; but suffice it to say, with enough supplements, fighters can break the game just as well as anyone else.And then there's Divine Metamagicked Persistent and Quicken Spell on Cleric melee buffs.
Except when it's been demonstrated countless times that the Cleric can do what the Fighter does, better than the Fighter does, they absolutely are comparable.I'm not saying the class isn't broken. I'm just saying, the two aren't comparable. It isn't the case that the cleric is a better fighter, or a worse fighter. Fundamentally, a cleric isn't a fighter, and the two cannot be compared. If you want to play a martial character, then that's sufficient justification to not make a cleric.
This makes no sense.Irrelevant. "D&D 3.5" is not the same game as "D&D 3.5, plus a specific sub-set of other d20 material."
Only under a sub-set of conditions. Since we can't rely on those conditions, and they aren't comparable outside of those conditions, they simply aren't comparable.Except when it's been demonstrated countless times that the Cleric can do what the Fighter does, better than the Fighter does, they absolutely are comparable.
Yeah, like when the combat starts and the enemy isn't within range for the Cleric to make a full attack action. That's a pretty common condition. A Divine Favor or, later, Divine Power in the 1st round will be more beneficial than moving more than a 5-foot step and making one measly attack.Only under a sub-set of conditions. Since we can't rely on those conditions, and they aren't comparable outside of those conditions, they simply aren't comparable.
Wasting an action and a spell slot, to no immediate effect, is simply not comparable to moving and making an attack (more likely, charging for a Power Attack, if we're talking about a real martial class). It's just not, and no reasonable person could argue otherwise. One of them has no immediate effect, and costs a spell slot, while the other does a substantial amount of damage immediately.Yeah, like when the combat starts and the enemy isn't within range for the Cleric to make a full attack action. That's a pretty common condition. A Divine Favor or, later, Divine Power in the 1st round will be more beneficial than moving more than a 5-foot step and making one measly attack.
If immediate damage is more your concern, then the Cleric has some lovely spells like Inflict X Wounds (vs. touch AC!), Spiritual Weapon and Shatter.Wasting an action and a spell slot, to no immediate effect, is simply not comparable to moving and making an attack (more likely, charging for a Power Attack, if we're talking about a real martial class). It's just not, and no reasonable person could argue otherwise. One of them has no immediate effect, and costs a spell slot, while the other does a substantial amount of damage immediately.