D&D General The Hall of Suck: Worst Classes in D&D History (Spoiler Alert: Nothing from 5e)

[Gladius Legis]

At this point the only thing left to do is use the ignore button. Goodbye

Good riddance.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Your anecdote doesn't carry any more weight than my own, and cherry-picking your circumstances does not result in sound logic. The only justified conclusion is that a cleric is too different from a martial class to make any sort of reasonable comparison.

And yet you're the one who put conditionals on the Cleric's buffing ability in your anecdote.

FYI, Divine Favor alone is one 1st-level spell that already tended to even up or even propel Clerics above martial classes in melee combat at the early levels. And then a 7th-level Cleric only needed a Divine Power (4th-level spell) casting to surpass a martial at that level. To say nothing of what happened if a Cleric actually had the opportunity to walk in with multiple buffs active.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

And yet you're the one who put conditionals on the Cleric's buffing ability in your anecdote.

I'm the one not assuming you have a chance to buff beforehand. If you assume that you can trivially flout the core balancing mechanic of the game - the action economy - then it's no wonder that you found the class to be broken.

That reflects poorly on you. It's no reflection whatsoever on the game, itself.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I'm the one not assuming you have a chance to buff beforehand. If you assume that you can trivially flout the core balancing mechanic of the game - the action economy - then it's no wonder that you found the class to be broken.

That reflects poorly on you. It's no reflection whatsoever on the game, itself.

I'm hardly the first or the only one who noticed the Cleric is broken. CoDzilla has been a thing for more than 15 years.

Also in the instances it's not optimal for the Cleric to get off a melee buff in the first round, the same Cleric most likely has something else good it can cast.

That's a pretty rare case though in 3.5, as in it only happens if the enemy and PC party literally start the combat right next to each other, in which case a full attack is actually something you can do in the 1st round. Otherwise, it's best to cast the melee buff, let the enemy close on you, then start full attacking 2nd round on.

And then there's Divine Metamagicked Persistent and Quicken Spell on Cleric melee buffs.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I'm hardly the first or the only one who noticed the Cleric is broken. CoDzilla has been a thing for more than 15 years.

Also in the instances the Cleric can't get off a melee buff in the first round, the same Cleric most likely has something else good it can cast.

I'm not saying the class isn't broken. I'm just saying, the two aren't comparable. It isn't the case that the cleric is a better fighter, or a worse fighter. Fundamentally, a cleric isn't a fighter, and the two cannot be compared. If you want to play a martial character, then that's sufficient justification to not make a cleric, because it's simply no substitute.

And then there's Divine Metamagicked Persistent and Quicken Spell on Cleric melee buffs.

Irrelevant. "D&D 3.5" is not the same game as "D&D 3.5, plus a specific sub-set of other d20 material." If you want to count supplements beyond the core book, then there are too many possibilities to analyze; but suffice it to say, with enough supplements, fighters can break the game just as well as anyone else.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I'm not saying the class isn't broken. I'm just saying, the two aren't comparable. It isn't the case that the cleric is a better fighter, or a worse fighter. Fundamentally, a cleric isn't a fighter, and the two cannot be compared. If you want to play a martial character, then that's sufficient justification to not make a cleric.

Except when it's been demonstrated countless times that the Cleric can do what the Fighter does, better than the Fighter does, they absolutely are comparable.

Irrelevant. "D&D 3.5" is not the same game as "D&D 3.5, plus a specific sub-set of other d20 material."

This makes no sense.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Except when it's been demonstrated countless times that the Cleric can do what the Fighter does, better than the Fighter does, they absolutely are comparable.

Only under a sub-set of conditions. Since we can't rely on those conditions, and they aren't comparable outside of those conditions, they simply aren't comparable.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Only under a sub-set of conditions. Since we can't rely on those conditions, and they aren't comparable outside of those conditions, they simply aren't comparable.

Yeah, like when the combat starts and the enemy isn't within range for the Cleric to make a full attack action. That's a pretty common condition. A Divine Favor or, later, Divine Power in the 1st round will be more beneficial than moving more than a 5-foot step and making one measly attack.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Yeah, like when the combat starts and the enemy isn't within range for the Cleric to make a full attack action. That's a pretty common condition. A Divine Favor or, later, Divine Power in the 1st round will be more beneficial than moving more than a 5-foot step and making one measly attack.

Wasting an action and a spell slot, to no immediate effect, is simply not comparable to moving and making an attack (more likely, charging for a Power Attack, if we're talking about a real martial class). It's just not, and no reasonable person could argue otherwise. One of them has no immediate effect, and costs a spell slot, while the other does a substantial amount of damage immediately.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Wasting an action and a spell slot, to no immediate effect, is simply not comparable to moving and making an attack (more likely, charging for a Power Attack, if we're talking about a real martial class). It's just not, and no reasonable person could argue otherwise. One of them has no immediate effect, and costs a spell slot, while the other does a substantial amount of damage immediately.

If immediate damage is more your concern, then the Cleric has some lovely spells like Inflict X Wounds (vs. touch AC!), Spiritual Weapon and Shatter.

Bottom line, anything the Fighter, or Paladin, or any martial can do, the Cleric has a better answer for it.