D&D (2024) (+) New Edition Changes for Inclusivity (discuss possibilities)

[Wishbone]

No, it has not "been proven" that we are unable to persuade people to change their minds about important topics of the day. It's often difficult to do, and even more difficult to do it with the impersonal medium of the internet, but science hasn't "proven" that persuasion is not possible.

But more on point, changing the minds of the speaker we disagree with is not the point of the marketplace of ideas. The marketplace of ideas is that the best opinion wins out with the audience at large - not with the person we're dissenting from. The goal of spreading good speech to counter bad speech is to persuade other listeners, not the person making the bad speech.

Williams Jennings Bryan and Clarence Darrow were not trying to persuade each other concerning their views on creation versus evolution. Ultimately, they were trying to persuade the public at large. That's the marketplace of ideas in action. And it does work.

So since there's been broader adoption of many of the ideas put forward by protest movements it follows they're selling something most people are buying into in the marketplace, no?

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Does it need to be?

I mean I refluffed barbarian as a Jedi like monk... rage became battle meditation

That's still a melee fighter with a super mode.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

No, it has not "been proven" that we are unable to persuade people to change their minds about important topics of the day. It's often difficult to do, and even more difficult to do it with the impersonal medium of the internet, but science hasn't "proven" that persuasion is not possible.

But more on point, changing the minds of the speaker we disagree with is not the point of the marketplace of ideas. The marketplace of ideas is that the best opinion wins out with the audience at large - not with the person we're dissenting from. The goal of spreading good speech to counter bad speech is to persuade other listeners, not the person making the bad speech.

Williams Jennings Bryan and Clarence Darrow were not trying to persuade each other concerning their views on creation versus evolution. Ultimately, they were trying to persuade the public at large. That's the marketplace of ideas in action. And it does work.

Yes, it has been proven, there's even a name for this phenomona. It's called The Backfire Effect.

And the Market Place of Ideas concept just runs into another problem with human psychology. That problem being confirmation bias. Each person will just see the person they supported having "won" the debate.

 

[Maxperson]

So since there's been broader adoption of many of the ideas put forward by protest movements it follows they're selling something most people are buying into in the marketplace, no?

Certainly loud people. I don't know if most people are or not, though.

 

[Mistwell]

So since there's been broader adoption of many of the ideas put forward by protest movements it follows they're selling something most people are buying into in the marketplace, no?

Yes I would say the various forms of speech surrounding the BLM movement, which includes the protests, is persuading people to support their message. Do you disagree?

 

[DnD Warlord]

That's still a melee fighter with a super mode.

Right but does it have to be called barbarian?

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Right but does it have to be called barbarian?

Can you think of a better name for that archetype that fits within D&D?

 

[Mistwell]

Yes, it has been proven, there's even a name for this phenomona. It's called The Backfire Effect.

It has not been proven. Even if you apply a name to it, that doesn't prove persuasion doesn't work. If naming something proved it were true, then my naming the marketplace of ideas philosophy would have proven it's true.

And the Market Place of Ideas concept just runs into another problem with human psychology. That problem being confirmation bias. Each person will just see the person they supported having "won" the debate.

That's absolutely something each speaker needs to deal with in their speech if they want to be persuasive. All that does it make it difficult. If changing minds were easy, everyone would change their mind about everything all the time.

A college debate class confronts these issues head-on. In terms of proof, you can "prove" to you that persuasion of some people is in fact possible even when they have deep bias.

Have you never changed anyone's mind about anything which they were predisposed to be biased to believe prior to you trying to persuade them? I mean, even when a teenager, did you never persuade a parent to let you do something they were biased to be predisposed to say no to before you tried to persuade them otherwise?

 

[Wishbone]

Yes I would say the various forms of speech surrounding the BLM movement, which includes the protests, is persuading people to support their message. Do you disagree?

No, I was asking a leading question to point out that the Marketplace of Ideas framework is still the primary one in effect.

 

[Mistwell]

No, I was asking a leading question to point out that the Marketplace of Ideas framework is still the primary one in effect.

I don't disagree. It's en vogue these days for a lot of people to like the paradox of tolerance and think like FlyingChihuahua is arguing, but I don't think the marketplace of ideas is dead. Indeed, I think it's still the winning philosophy and will win out in the end against the other view. Which I suppose is what will prove it was correct