Why don’t players surrender... would we want them too?

[Jd Smith1]

OTOH, we could also say "If players just whip up another PC, what's the point of combat?"

Character death in an RPG would be meaningful if the player couldn't play anymore

I disagree. At my table, all PCs start at level one, regardless of where the campaign or party is at, level-wise. And all that legacy gear the dead PC had reverts to the party fund, and the 'new guy' isn't going to be getting it.

So while you're right, the player continues on, but there is a substantial setback involved in the death of a PC.

 

[Eric V]

You never met people who liked nice things a lot? Cars, houses, etc?

In years past I've worked more than one RL murder that occured because a car was dinged.

Sure, but were they willing to die without their car?

"Come on, this is our chance, we need to get out of here, or we'll die in here!"

"Not without my iPhone!!"

"..."

 

[Eric V]

I disagree. At my table, all PCs start at level one, regardless of where the campaign or party is at, level-wise. And all that legacy gear the dead PC had reverts to the party fund, and the 'new guy' isn't going to be getting it.

So while you're right, the player continues on, but there is a substantial setback involved in the death of a PC.

How high do your parties get? Like, an 11th level party has a 1st level guy with them?

What if no one in the party can use what's left in the "party fund?" New guy still can't use it?

 

[Derren]

The moat recent capture event I remember in a campaign was in Classic Traveller. As described in more detail here, the PCs surrendered to a more powerful force. Most were beaten into unconsciousness in the course of interrogation, but one was able to overcome the guard (wrestling away the latter's SMG) and then steal the battle dress from the NPCs (its NPC owner was just coming out of the shower at the time). Equipped with battle dress, the PC in question was able to defeat the NPCs and save all but one of the other PCs.

That was the second surrender/capture/escape episode in this campaign. The first was starship-based rather than on-world; on that occasion the PCs managed to turn the tables and take control of the enemy starship. (Which was handy, as the PCs' starship had been disabled in the firefight that preceded their surrender.)

Thats exactly the expectation players have that I mentioned above. That they are of course able to not only escape but recover all their equipment and to kill the BBEGs. I find that rather silly and limiting.

 

[pemerton]

PC death is basically a red herring, unless we are talking about a fairly narrow range of OSR-ish play in which PC death is a loss condition necessitating a restart at 1st level.

The reason for having combats in the game is the same as the reason for anything else being part of the game - they're fun to play out and can generate interesting consequences! One of those possible consequences, obviously enough, is the PCs surrendering. The point of that (at least at our table) is not to be a loss condition, or a win condition, but rather a new context for adversity.

If the PCs don't surrender there will be adversity too - otherwise there is no play - but the fiction will be different.

Some systems make it hard to resolve the particular adversity of having been taken prisoner - eg the range of permissible action declarations doesn't extend to credible actions for a prisoner to take - but that's not a problem in the systems my group plays.

 

[TheSword]

"Surrender their weapons and help build the kingdom" sounds like slavery...
Which is of course a sensible option.

One problem and source of disconnect, is that many people apply modern morality to a setting which, at least on the outside, is based on medieval/renaissance times.

That’s more of an aspirational goal. There was no practical way of forcing the reformed-bandits to stay in the kingdom. They were free, but if they chose to stay after that fact they had committed to turn away from banditry. They would get land to farm, and a chance to work for their future. Or an opportunity to work in construction or a trade for fair wages. Hardly slavery...

 

[Umbran]

I disagree. If the PCs can't die...

Mod Note:

As has been noted several times now by various posters - the only one who seems to be putting forth that argument is you. Please do not fight this straw man further, as it is disrupting other conversation in the thread. Thanks.

 

[pemerton]

I just remembered that in our Wuthering Heights one-shot one of the PCs was imprisoned (for selling censored books). The PC subsequently causes a riot to break out in the prison, during which he escaped.

 

[pemerton]

Thats exactly the expectation players have that I mentioned above. That they are of course able to not only escape but recover all their equipment and to kill the BBEGs. I find that rather silly and limiting.

Do you encourage GMs to railroad things to a TPK rather than resolve the situation using the rules the system provides?

Also, what is the limit you are finding here?

EDIT:

recover all their equipment and to kill the BBEGs.

Who said anything about killing anyone? Many of the crew of the captured starship are still its crew. And the ownership of the starship was actually settled, after the immediate situation had been resolved, by a wager between one of the PCs and the starship's (now former) owner. She still travels with the PCs although she no longer owns her (former) ship.

 

[TheSword]

Thats exactly the expectation players have that I mentioned above. That they are of course able to not only escape but recover all their equipment and to kill the BBEGs. I find that rather silly and limiting.

If they are on a starship where would you expect the equipment to go?

I mean there has to be a half way house between the kit being in a chest next to the cell vs being sold to peripatetic peddlers the moment it’s stripped of the PCs.

The BBEG may use the fighters magic sword against them, or be displaying their magic armour while they try and find a buyer but it normally takes time to find a buyer for rare items like this. I don’t see why consumable items would be used if there haven’t been any other attacks. Also the rarity and value of magic items would suggest they would go to the relatively few most senior individuals.

In the BGDintoA campaign I mentioned above their mundane stuff was kept in a central storeroom, their magic items were in the bad guys study waiting to be identified. One was on her person ready to be used against the party.