D&D General Greyhawk and "Low Magic" : Why Low Magic is in the Eyes of Beholder

[LongTimeLurker]

To be fair Birthright was low Magic in terms of wizards, though clerics were common and magic did suffuse the setting with ley lines and blood powers.

The core idea of making arcane magic special and rare was achieved.

fair enough. i was going to add that i wasn't familiar enough with a lot of settings but my post seemed long winded enough without it. Ravenloft seemed fairly low magic and i guess Masque of the Red Death would be low magic (but i've never even read a supplement for that setting so i could be wrong) and maybe Mystara?

 

[Helldritch]

i'd agree 100%. With all the named spellcasters who invented seemingly half the known spells in the multiverse, events like the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire plus all the magical items (vorpal swords, intelligent items, frostbrands, flametongues, hammers of thunderbolts, staves of the magi and power, etc. etc.) plus all the artifacts and relics, plus the laser guns floating around; and the underground is apparently so suffused with magical power it automatically makes mundane drow equipment magical - how could you possibly think that greyhawk was low magic?? now, do you trip over 25th+ level spellcasters like the forgotten realms? no; but the FR is ridiculously over-the-top high fantasy that greyhawk wasn't trying to emulate.

TSR published at least one trying-to-be-low-magic-but-ended-up-just-being-annoying setting, Lankhmar. Compared with that place, Greyhawk is awash in magic.

You are partially right. A lot of the artifact were made a long time ago in an age of myth. As I have said in an other post, there was different power level in magical items that made them barely better than a mundane item. A +1 sword could not hit a creature hit by +2 weapons. Today, even a weapon without bonuses can hit magical monster if said weapon is magical (a vicious weapon for example).

As for the drow magical weapons and armors. Remember that these were quasi magical and not magical per say. That is why they would get destroyed if brought into sunlight. When it first came out, my players were so happy with their +3 long swords, chain mails and shields... Only to see then rot under their very eyes under the sunlight.

Yes there is a lot of magic items but they are generally less powerful than 5ed version. Wands were a finite resource whereas in5ed if you don't spend the last charge, your wand will last eternally. The same goes with every charged items. Even arrows will not break as in 1ed they were destroyed after striking. Well, a generous DM would allow a save vs crushing blow to recover arrows (if used against mundane opponents) but it was not all DM that would do it. A good reason that Quivers of Ehllona were so sought after and so prized.

Again, the low magic aspect is not in the spells, the power or availability of magic but it is in the amount of high level casters. They are rare. In a world were a raise dead is something that is not guaranteed to be available, you don't take chances if you have a choice. High level casters are those that survived.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

You are partially right...

interesting take. i've played a fair amount in greyhawk and never, ever considered it to be low magic. it always seemed to me that since the people who the spells were named after (the bigbys and tensers and mordenkainens) were still alive and active within the campaign setting, there were always high level wizards mucking about in peoples business. also, the greyhawk wizards seemed especially ubiquitous since they had spells named after them in other campaign worlds like the Forgotten Realms, for instance. how come nobody in greyhawk seems to be casting spells named after elminster...?

plus, there seemed to be a lot of divine intervention and meeting demi-gods and named demon lords and such within a lot of the greyhawk modules and whatnot (obviously the FR trounces greyhawk in that regard). and wishes - there seemed to be a lot of wishes given out in greyhawk, though i freely admit that might have been more of a '1Eism' than anything else. also, there seemed to be way more magical pools and fruits you could bathe in/eat to raise/lower ability scores (for example) in greyhawk than any other setting. again, this might be more of a gygax/1E thing than strictly a greyhawk thing.

 

[Hussar]

Up to the heart lands 1ed FR; I remember that FR is a bit bigger but not that much. The population density is on the FR side if you take the 1983 GH set by a big margin. The FtA and the 3.5ed raised GH poulation by almost a factor of six... Since we're mainly talking about the 1983 box set, the Greyhawk is quite low on population and it was on purpose. It opened up land grabbing by named level PCs and the "taming a land to civilize it" trope that wargammers so loved.

I think that might be the "hook" that really sets GH apart from other settings. The notion that your PC'S are on the path to "taming the land". Which does set it apart from FR which is already largely tamed and owned by someone.

 

[Helldritch]

interesting take. i've played a fair amount in greyhawk and never, ever considered it to be low magic. it always seemed to me that since the people who the spells were named after (the bigbys and tensers and mordenkainens) were still alive and active within the campaign setting, there were always high level wizards mucking about in peoples business. also, the greyhawk wizards seemed especially ubiquitous since they had spells named after them in other campaign worlds like the Forgotten Realms, for instance. how come nobody in greyhawk seems to be casting spells named after elminster...?

plus, there seemed to be a lot of divine intervention and meeting demi-gods and named demon lords and such within a lot of the greyhawk modules and whatnot (obviously the FR trounces greyhawk in that regard). and wishes - there seemed to be a lot of wishes given out in greyhawk, though i freely admit that might have been more of a '1Eism' than anything else. also, there seemed to be way more magical pools and fruits you could bathe in/eat to raise/lower ability scores (for example) in greyhawk than any other setting. again, this might be more of a gygax/1E thing than strictly a greyhawk thing.

As Snarf said, low magic can mean a lot of things and it also depends on what you compare it too. GH is considered to be low magic mainly because high level casters are so rare and far between that to talk to one can be an adventure in itself. It is not in the rarity of magical items, the vast majority of them come from an other age, but from the fact that creating them is almost a lost art and the costs was always great. Permanency had a high cost in earlier editions. The permanent loss a point of constitution was an efficient deterent to many. It could be circumvented, but all ways to circumvent that loss were evil (almost all of them).

Magic is as powerful in GH as it is in the FR or in Eberron. It is just a lot rarer and arcane secrets rest in the hands of a few high powered casters. The amount of low level casters is proportionally equal to FR, but the percentage trying to go further is way lower. Either because they die or because they retire.

Weilding 3rd and 4th level spells is not a small feat in itself. You have power that the vast majority will never attain. Why risk your life to weild more? Not everyone have the will to push onward. How many campaigns go higher than 9th level in 5th edition already? Not that much. The same should hold true for our NPCs.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, the low magic part.

I know Ulthuan is drenched in magic. My point is the streets and wildernesses of the Empire where the action happens, aren’t.

To put it another way. Middle Earth has Balrogs, angels in human form, Uber powerful elf princesses, demi gods and magic rings. But you don’t see much of that if you play AIME. Even if you met Galadriel she’s not going to sell you a staff of fireballs.

Yeah, like I said, it's only a slice of the adventurers life.

You could level up enough to interact with major players. Many of the advance careers in WHFB would have you run elbows with lords and mages and affect the world.

The issue is you will likely die before you can get an advanced career. But they are in the book. You just will die before you get enough money, Xp/EP, and game to find a teacher. It's essentially a tier gate.

And again this is just the human, halflings, and dwarf experience. Everywhere outside of human, orc, and other lands is not low magic.

 

[The Glen]

fair enough. i was going to add that i wasn't familiar enough with a lot of settings but my post seemed long winded enough without it. Ravenloft seemed fairly low magic and i guess Masque of the Red Death would be low magic (but i've never even read a supplement for that setting so i could be wrong) and maybe Mystara?

Mystara's magic varies by region. Glantri and Alphatia's magic is ubiquitous, wizards rule and magic is visible everywhere. In other nations wizards are much rarer, you might have powerful wizards in those nations numbering less than 10. For story reasons high-level wizards don't like to be anywhere near each other, so it greatly dilutes the number of wizards in areas not immediately ruled over by wizards. The Hollow World has very few wizards because the requirements for learning all types of magic are greater due to Immortal interference. The Savage Coast has powerful wizards rare as well because the curse usually means they will go elsewhere because it interferes with their casting of certain spells.

 

[Remathilis]

fair enough. i was going to add that i wasn't familiar enough with a lot of settings but my post seemed long winded enough without it. Ravenloft seemed fairly low magic and i guess Masque of the Red Death would be low magic (but i've never even read a supplement for that setting so i could be wrong) and maybe Mystara?

MotRD was very low magic in 2e; there were only four classes (adept, mystic, soldier, tradesman) correlate to the classic D&D four. The two spellcasters had limited spell selection (not all spells available), didn't have access to all schools/spheres except by leveling, had to make proficiency checks to cast, and casting took ROUNDS (minutes) to complete, not segments. Oh, and all magic items were cursed somehow. Plus all the Ravenloft restrictions on magic were in effect as well. Most later versions were a bit more forgiving.

Ravenloft itself though isn't exactly low magic, but it's weak magic. Spellcasters exist and depending on the domain are known, but few NPCs that aren't Dark Lord's use magic of any consequence and the rules favor them when magic would disrupt thier plans. With Ravenloft, it varies from domain to domain what kind of reaction a spellcaster will get.

 

[Ath'kethin]

The Conan books by Robert E. Howard. It best captures sword & sorcery for me. But I feel that were I to run a Conan-style game, I would not allow magic users as PCs.

As for a low-magic campaign where PCs still do magic, I'm thinking Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.

Another option, and one I have used, is have the only PC caster options be the Ritual Caster feat and the Warlock class.

But really, to my mind "low magic" is as much about a society's perception of magic as anything else. If your commoners freak out at even the hint of magic and disown magical healing as evil or "witchcraft" or what have you, your world will feel very different than if such things are just taken in stride.

 

[bloodtide]

None of the D&D settings that are considered High Magic are even close to that either.

Well....the Frogoten Realms has roughly 100 arcane spellcasters alive at any one time that can cast wish, plus at least 100 divine ones that can cast miracle.

Mystara...the Empire of Alphatia has 1,000 wizards of 36th level (say 20th)

The Volo guides for FR, as well as many other things written by Ed Greenwood show a good 'high magic' world for common folks: plenty of shops or taverns have a guardian golem, powerful spell wards, magic items and a high level spellcaster or six. Aurora's shops alone operate a world wide teleport/portal system. And that is just the stuff covered by the rules, as FR has tons of 'unknown mysterious magic'.