D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk


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Aldarc

Legend
I think that's kind of the crux of the issue. Just look at the difference between the abilities of Jedi in the original Star Wars trilogy and compare them to the prequels. Even in the animated series Rebels, Ezra, a force user trained by a former padawan, pulls off more bad ass over-the-top stunts than we ever saw Luke performing in the original trilogy. Today's young players grew up with Dragon Ball Z and Harry Potter.
That's partly an issue of budget and special effects though, and what one can do in televised animation now compared to then is also fairly significant.
 

I think that's kind of the crux of the issue. Just look at the difference between the abilities of Jedi in the original Star Wars trilogy and compare them to the prequels. Even in the animated series Rebels, Ezra, a force user trained by a former padawan, pulls off more bad ass over-the-top stunts than we ever saw Luke performing in the original trilogy. Today's young players grew up with Dragon Ball Z and Harry Potter.

I don't know about you, but most of my students have haven't seen Dragon Ball Z. Then again, most haven't seen Star Wars either. They're much more into Marvel films and more modern anime.
 

I don't know about you, but most of my students have haven't seen Dragon Ball Z. Then again, most haven't seen Star Wars either. They're much more into Marvel films and more modern anime.
My younger players (20-30 something) are really into anime. To the extent that I felt I had to watch some in order to include the kind of stuff they like.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Is it though? I can't really see any incentive for WotC to ever want to do that.

They might be convinced that there is money to be made in a product aimed at older, already Greyhawk fans, who, though few in number, are deep of pocket.

Unless WotC is going price Greyhawk in the Beadle & Grimm range, no matter how "deep of pocket" the "few in number" (who will be less and less as years go by) are, it's not going to be nearly as profitable as trying to court the younger audience (who are far more numerous, and will live longer, than us crusty geezers). Moreover, many of us storied Greyhawk fans have widely, and sometimes contradictory, ideas of what Greyhawk is and what it should be. So, which of the older Greyhawk fans are you going to cater to? Whichever you choose, that makes the potential customer even fewer in number. If a Greyhawk setting sourcebook doesn't have a greater appeal than to pre-existing fans, it won't be profitable. Sadly, there are just not enough of us.

I hate to say, but we are not the future of D&D—we can't ever realistically be. At a certain point we'll all be dropping like flies. Do you want Greyhawk to die with us or do you want it to outlive us? Because, unless we want Greyhawk to become an artifact buried in the past, we need to court that younger audience to create new fans.
 

Unless WotC is going price Greyhawk in the Beadle & Grimm range, no matter how "deep of pocket" the "few in number" (who will be less and less as years go by) are, it's not going to be nearly as profitable as trying to court the younger audience (who are far more numerous, and will live longer, than us crusty geezers). Moreover, many of us storied Greyhawk fans have widely, and sometimes contradictory, ideas of what Greyhawk is and what it should be. So, which of the older Greyhawk fans are you going to cater to? Whichever you choose, that makes the potential customer even fewer in number. If a Greyhawk setting sourcebook doesn't have a greater appeal than to pre-existing fans, it won't be profitable. Sadly, there are just not enough of us.

I hate to say, but we are not the future of D&D—we can't ever realistically be. At a certain point we'll all be dropping like flies. Do you want Greyhawk to die with us or do you want it to outlive us? Because, unless we want Greyhawk to become an artifact buried in the past, we need to court that younger audience to create new fans.
It seems to me that the way to cater to existing fans would be to repackage the original WoG folio/box into a hardback book with some coloured artwork, and print it with Gygax's name as the primary author. That way you are sure to retain the "feel", and reduce production costs by keeping new content to a minimum. (and certainly do a Beadle & Grimm collector's edition.)

Trying to persuade young people to like what you like is a lost cause, as you should know if your parents ever tried to make you watch Mr Pastry. Evangelising dated and out of print fiction isn't going to help. Maybe trying to connect Greyhawk to something more modern like GoT or Witcher might. But then what's the point if older fans see it as a bastardisation?

Personally, although I am of the Greyhawk generation, I'm not a fan. I was always a homebrew guy, and feel that is closer to Gygax's vision anyway.
 
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MGibster

Legend
That's partly an issue of budget and special effects though, and what one can do in televised animation now compared to then is also fairly significant.

Well, yeah. But the point is an eighteen year old in 2020 grew up with a different set of expectations than someone of a similar age in 1980. So I wouldn't necessarily expect younger people today to be interested in a setting created decades before they were even more.
 


That may have been true on some boards. It wasn't really true that it was a "construct" here, though. A lot of vocal critics of 4E openly stated that they hadn't played it, which was refreshingly transparent, but obviously meant that a lot of the arguments involved were very hard to actually have, because many critics couldn't substantiate points or expand on them. That's actually what really showed me that a lot of opinions are really low-value/low-effort (and caused me to question some of my own less-supportable opinions as a result).

A particularly common and dubious argument I saw was that 4E was "basically the same thing as World of Warcraft"*. If that sounds vague, it's because this was indeed a nebulous and ill-defined talking point, and the vast majority of people who used it had never played World of Warcraft (again, this was openly admitted). In some cases they'd played neither WoW nor 4E, by their own admission, but were repeating this talking point! I also heard it from a couple of people IRL (one of whom later joined my 4E group!), who had equally never played 4E or WoW.

It was kind of fascinating, from a cultural viewpoint. It's not a reaction I'd seen much re: RPGs before. I'd seen plenty of edition wars, before, but they tended to be fought over very specific rules, or setting changes, which were well-understood (the one major exception being 1E-2E D&D which had elements of that, but seemed to mostly be concerned with nebulous perceived changes of tone, a lot of which couldn't really be pinned down).

Indeed, talking of people not having played 4E but criticising it, that was a major drag in a lot of discussions about, because people frequently asserted opinions about AEDU or roles, or the like, without actually understanding how they worked, so you'd get these massive tangents where you were trying to explain to someone how AEDU actually worked. The worst was when you got someone who'd never played 4E or WoW, but was insisting, for example, that Defenders in 4E functioned mechanically nigh-identically to Tanks in WoW. And I do mean they were literally insisting that the mechanics themselves were similar, not that the end result was (which it wasn't, but that's another story). This didn't happen just once, either, but a lot of times.

This is part of why I'm disinclined to attempt to explain things in detail to people who don't want to make any effort to learn about stuff themselves, but want to argue about it. Several times I spent a lot of effort explaining the massive difference in approach and functionality between the Defender's ability to punish people for hitting his friends, and the monster-magnet rodeo-clown approach of MMO Tanks, with detailed explanations of the mechanics, and just got "Nah they're the same" or a similar response. In one case, I think on another board, I had a guy tell me I was lying and that 4E literally had a WoW-like "aggro" mechanic, but that was a lone nutter I think.



Yeah it's amazing how people will remember some false claim re: 4E, often an easily-disproven one re: mechanics, years later, and blithely repeat it as if it were gospel truth.

* = A much more nuanced and interesting thing was actually going on, which I think this clumsy assertion actually prevented proper discussion of, which was that WotC was hoping to make 4E fully playable online, and that having tablets/laptops at the table instead of character sheets would be desirable.

All of that is just classic edition warring rhetoric and propaganda.
I don't want newcomers getting the wrong idea about how things really were.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Nice, at least we've established it's crap rhetoric not worth rehashing; do not want new players to be lead astray of the real history by edition warring nonsense.
It's rude to put words in my mouth. Very rude.

All of that is just classic edition warring rhetoric and propaganda.
I don't want newcomers getting the wrong idea about how things really were.
Contributing your own edition warring rhetoric and propaganda hardly helps matters, particularly if it only serves to fan the flames.
 

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