D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

Zeromaru X

Arkhosian scholar and coffee lover
The problem with that is that the Ur setting must be accommodated to appeal to the new people who is buying D&D (cuz the old guard hardly could turn such a 50th anniversary book into a killing success), but revamping the setting would upset the old guard...

Greyhawk's problem is a cyclical problem.
 

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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
The problem with that is that the Ur setting must be accommodated to appeal to the new people who is buying D&D (cuz the old guard hardly could turn such a 50th anniversary book into a killing success), but revamping the setting would upset the old guard...

Greyhawk's problem is a cyclical problem.

Not really.

The key is to make a good product. That's how something succeeds. Look at any type of media "reboot." If the new product is good, people come around (however begrudgingly). If it is terrible, they don't.

There were people who really liked the original Max Max series. So they rebooted it- new actor (thank goodness), new focus, etc. It did okay. It's the same with any property.

It's weird, isn't it? People like good stuff, and dislike bad stuff.
 

Life is all about reboots; for WoTC to forsake one of their classic IPs, and their ur-setting, seems like a poor choice.

I concur. With the 50th aniversary comming fast, it would be a shame and an outrage for WotC not to do something with Greyhawk. A reboot might not be a bad idea.

The problem with that is that the Ur setting must be accommodated to appeal to the new people who is buying D&D (cuz the old guard hardly could turn such a 50th anniversary book into a killing success), but revamping the setting would upset the old guard...

Greyhawk's problem is a cyclical problem.
With zounds of reboot of beloved franchise, be it in comic books or movies or even series; would be so far fetch to at least try it? Greyhawk is distinctive enough for people in my area to try it and either I made a mistake not going for a salesman career or the setting is good for many of those that I have shown the setting that were under 30 absolutely loved it. Enough for some to but both box sets in the DMG, to take my notes and to laminate the maps at extensive costs. If I can do this in my little area, imagine what a whole company can do.

I sincerly believe that Greyhawk can catter to the younger generation as something that is way out of what the're getting in setting right now.
 


Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Well, the issue is, I can see people treating it as bad without even reading it, only because it has changes (it happened to 4e Forgotten Realms...).

I agree- having been burned many times.

...but it's almost like an IP version of, "The only bad publicity is no publicity." I would hate for a bad Greyhawk to come out, but the only thing I would hate more is for no Greyhawk to come out.

At least a bad one keeps it alive for another generation. :)


(For example, I don't agree with all of the changes in the 3e Greyhawk, but at least it brought the setting to a new generation of fans.)
 

As one of the old fogeys who started with 1E and when the WoG was the only setting around, the idea of a reboot distresses me... not in the least. At least partly because I'm long out of the gaming scene. Even if I wasn't... who cares? If a reboot introduces a new generation to the WoG, great. If they make changes to make it fit better in 5E, fine. It's not as if I don't have fond memories of the older setting.
The one real question about a reboot is 'pre-GW' or 'post-GW'. I personally prefer pre-Wars simply because there were more nations/cultures around, and the Wars replaced several of them with 'space filling empires'. That said, if they decided to go post-Wars and everything since, it still wouldn't distress me any...
 

3e Greyhawk was not bad per see. It had weak spots but most of it was adequate or good. Could it have been better? Sure, but it was pretty obvious it was done for the sake of doing it. A 5e Greyhawk can only bring more people to the world itself. If done right, it will please both old grognards like me and the younger generations
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
"So what is to be done with Greyhawk? I think there are two simple, easy-to-understand, wrong solutions to the problem:
1. Ignore the haters and publish whatever you want; they are just going to whine and die off anyway.
2. Don't bother with Greyhawk; it's not worth it.

The reason neither of these is really suitable is because ignoring the people that are truly passionate about a product is probably not a good way to succeed (after all, even old people can evangelize) while ignoring the ur-setting of D&D in 5e (motto- "We will bring all ur nostalgia to u while also cultivating the twitch peoples") seems like a poor choice."

Greyhawk is WoTC's (via TSR) oldest campaign setting. It would be, for lack of a better word, criminal for them to let it fall into official disuse.

Catering to the Old Guard exclusively is a mug's game. But given that we are almost on the 50th Anniversary of D&D, it would be beyond comprehension for WoTC to not issue a new Greyhawk for a new generation.

Life is all about reboots; for WoTC to forsake one of their classic IPs, and their ur-setting, seems like a poor choice.

I don't know if I agree about not ignoring those who are passionate about a product when it comes to this kind of stuff. Sometimes, I think you have to do that, at least a bit.

I don't know if a Greyhawk product could be made that would meet the criteria that it appears necessary to meet. The requirements of the fans of the classic material may not align with the expectations of modern players and enthusiasts. Yes, there are some people who probably fit into some kind of venn diagram where they enjoy elements of classic play and elements of modern play (I probably fit right into that overlap myself), but would that be enough to justify a product?

For every old school fan of GH who might want a 5E version, you have another who points out he doesn't need it, he's been homebrewing everything he needs for several editions now, anyway....for every person who enjoys things like drow PCs and tieflings, you have a grognard whose head explodes at the meer mention of them.....and so on.

You're obviously very passionate about the setting, and that's cool....like I said, I dig it myself, although I don't think to the same degree. But how much of that is based on nostalgia and other factors that can't be replicated for a new audience?

Yes, you're right that a great product can appeal to a wide audience. So I think the question then is "how do you make a great Greyhawk setting book?" This has been touched upon in this thread, but even in the relatively small sampling here, an idea is posed, and immediately there are those who disagree.

I don't know if it can be done. Or that it can be done again....that may be a better way of saying it.

Maybe taking one of the old versions (either the Folio or the boxed set....but probably more likely the boxed set) and updating it with some modern layout and writing, maybe some sidebars that help reconcile differences between classic gaming and modern gaming (i.e. options being limited vs. many options being included, and so on). Maybe that might work?

Personally, I have no need of such a product, and neither do most existing fans of the setting. They'll only get so much out of it. You seem to want to capture a new generation of fans for the setting. This is not in any way a bad idea.....but I think that the question then becomes: "how do you make Greyhawk seem as awesome to people today as it did to the early gamers?"

And that's kind of tough.
 


AdmundfortGeographer

Getting lost in fantasy maps
For every old school fan of GH who might want a 5E version, you have another who points out he doesn't need it, he's been homebrewing everything he needs for several editions now, anyway....for every person who enjoys things like drow PCs and tieflings, you have a grognard whose head explodes at the meer mention of them.....and so on.
The old school fan who doesn’t want anything updated and is still running out of the 1983 box is already not a potential customer. They’re not going to buy a 5e Greyhawk because they are not in the market for one. You make a 5e Greyhawk for those who are open to it and never concern with those who put themselves out of the demographic for it.
 

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