D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Paul Farquhar]

Maybe, but I've seen no evidence that "psionics as spells" is any more popular than the other approaches, only that it's more up the "extremely negative" end. I certainly don't believe it passes the 70% approval test (I'm sure no version of psionics does -

I'm sure it doesn't. I doubt any of the options WotC presented got even 50% approval. There have been too many versions of psionics in different editions for there to be any consensus about what it should be like. But they never directly asked "do you want psionic spells" so they can slip it past their line managers.

but a lot of stuff wouldn't have passed the 70% test if added to the game after release - most caster classes wouldn't have, Warlocks definitely wouldn't have, and so on).

Probably true. IMO WotC should have skipped UA with psionics and pushed ahead with their own ideas. As it is it became too late in the day for them to do anything other than a fast kludge so the didn't have to indefinitely postpone Dark Sun.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If psionics cannot be countered or dispelled, they are not magic. That is my view point on them.

This is where I think WotC went wrong and a lot of people just view psionics as another branch of magic (arcane, divine, "primal", and psionic?).

For example, this is from the Mind Flayer:
View attachment 126573
Clearly, this aspect is "magical" because they treated it as such since the beginning. These spells could be countered or dispelled, so they are treating this aspect as magical.

But...

View attachment 126574
Also from the Mind Flayer, cannot be countered or dispelled. It has no spell level equivalent. Yet, it is "magically" emitted, so Magic Resistance would still impact the Intelligence saving throw. If you take the word "magically" out of the description, it is no longer a magical effect, it becomes a "mental" effect.

So, IMO, WotC just handled it wrong from the beginning. We've had psionics since 1E and it doesn't have to be complex or difficult to use, but I don't think we'll see a non-magical psionics until 6E, unfortunately.

I think they did it absolutely right. It would be absurd to have actual magic and then a separate sort of magic that is just not called magic, and these two would not interact with eachother yet produced similar effects.

If the logic is that the psionic magic uses the caster's innate power, arcane magic channels ambient power of the world and the divine magic borrows power from some mighty being then the distinction is at least semi-sensible. (This would probably mean that ki is psionics.)

 

[Maxperson]

Being able to manifest such effect by your will is blatantly supernatural (people can't do that in real life) and by most normal definitions would be magic. The definition of psionics in D&D has always been an incoherent mess. Psionics is just a pseudo-scientific sounding term for magic.

Yes it's supernatural. Yes it can be considered magical. No it's not magic in the same way as the other classes use it to cast spells.

 

[R_J_K75]

It would be absurd to have actual magic and then a separate sort of magic that is just not called magic, and these two would not interact with eachother yet produced similar effects.

That was the whole point of psionics from the start....to be separate from arcane and divine magic.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That was the whole point of psionics from the start....to be separate from arcane and divine magic.

It can be third form of magic, yes. But still magic and can still use the same system. Arcane and divine are separate types of magic yet use the same base system.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think they did it absolutely right.

Then the new material should be good for you--it just isn't for me and others. Which is why psionics has long been a heated issue when it comes to design space.

It would be absurd to have actual magic and then a separate sort of magic that is just not called magic, and these two would not interact with eachother yet produced similar effects.

But, again, it doesn't have to be magic in the same sense that arcane and divine are. Sure, people thought "science" was "magic" when they didn't understand it, etc.

No, the should not directly interact with each other IMO--this isn't WotC's choice obviously, but would have been mine.

How many similar effects they have should be limited. But "similar effects" is pretty broad. I mean, I could climb a cliff or levitate up it, both have the same effect of reaching the top. Would you have magical Telepathy and non-magical Telepathy for example? Sure. We already do.

If the logic is that the psionic magic uses the caster's innate power, arcane magic channels ambient power of the world and the divine magic borrows power from some mighty being then the distinction is at least semi-sensible. (This would probably mean that ki is psionics.)

First, there would not be "psionic magic"-- it is just psionics. They use mental training and techniques to alter themselves and reality. Are its effects similar to some magical spells? Sure. But they could be distinct. Not allowing them to interact is what would make them different. To me that should be the feature, not a bug. And yes, ki would be better represented by psionics than "magic" IMO.

Look, it isn't going to happen for 5E, we already know that. The point is it didn't have to be this way, and regardless of which approach WotC went with, we already know 1/3 of the people won't like it, 1/3 of them will, and 1/3 of them simply won't care either way (because they don't want it or are happy with either approach).

 

[R_J_K75]

It can be third form of magic, yes. But still magic and can still use the same system. Arcane and divine are separate types of magic yet use the same base system.

Agree, it can use the same "base" system as long as it doesnt use components, cant be dispelled and isnt called a spell. As clunky as the 1E & 2E psionic systems were, they felt totally different because of the mechanics they used. Its all about the flavor of the class and its powers. If theyre just magic it another magic using class then I think its a missed opportunity.

 

[Flamestrike]

I laughed when I saw a verbal spell component to a mind generated attack, its almost as if whoever created the system didn't really understand what psionics are.

 

[Flamestrike]

Agree, it can use the same "base" system as long as it doesnt use components, cant be dispelled and isnt called a spell. As clunky as the 1E & 2E psionic systems were, they felt totally different because of the mechanics they used. Its all about the flavor of the class and its powers. If theyre just magic it another magic using class then I think its a missed opportunity.

Jedis use verbal (These arent the Droids you're looking for) and somatic (hand waving, forceful hand thrusts etc) components.

Weirding way above uses verbal components.

I'm not seeing anything wrong with a Psionic creature having to wave their hands, or channel their psionic might via a word to be that problematic.

Looks like the main Psionic class will be a Sorcerer anyway, and they can silence those powers anyway (likely via class feature other than Silent spell which is always an option in any event).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But, again, it doesn't have to be magic in the same sense that arcane and divine are. Sure, people thought "science" was "magic" when they didn't understand it, etc.

How many similar effects they have should be limited. But "similar effects" is pretty broad. I mean, I could climb a cliff or levitate up it, both have the same effect of reaching the top. Would you have magical Telepathy and non-magical Telepathy for example? Sure. We already do.

First, there would not be "psionic magic"-- it is just psionics. They use mental training and techniques to alter themselves and reality. Are its effects similar to some magical spells? Sure. But they could be distinct. Not allowing them to interact is what would make them different. To me that should be the feature, not a bug. And yes, ki would be better represented by psionics than "magic" IMO.

I'm sorry, but I find this logic painfully nonsensical. 'It's not magic, I just use mental techniques to levitate things.' That's bloody magic, mate!