D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[Bacon Bits]

What role does psionics play in the story, though? You've said that it has a role a few times, but haven't clarified what it is psionics does that's integral to the setting? If I change psionics, what changes to the setting occur that aren't just 'things no longer have psionics?'

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Do you mean, "How do the setting mechanics change if psionics is removed?"

I don't know, what changes if you remove Thri-Kreen or Muls or Half-Giants? What if Elves weren't massive jerks? Does it need feral Halfings? What if the setting allowed Gnomes and Orcs and Paladins?

If you're not going to keep the elements of the setting, why would you still call it Dark Sun? Rather, why would you not invent a better setting that fits the themes you'd rather explore instead of carving up Dark Sun? What do you gain by eliminating psionics other than avoiding the dog's breakfast of psionic class design for 5e? Why would you want to publish a setting with it's elements removed?


Do you mean "What thematic or narrative role does psionics fill in the game world of Dark Sun?"

The role of psionics is that it's the only righteous path. To make yourself better and use your will and effort to better the world. It represents the high fantasy way to do things right. It's no coincidence that the master of the Will and the Way in the novels was the most LG character in the series, nor was it a coincidence that all the bad guys used magic. The role of psionics is accomplishing everything that magic does without being magic.

You can't use magic for this narrative point because preservers are supposed to be inherently distrusted. Historically in the setting, preservers all eventually turn to defilement and need to be killed. That's what they do. That's why they're viewed suspiciously nearly as much as defilers. Hundreds or thousands of years ago the preservers said they'd keep themselves in check, and now the world is a dead wasteland. Even preservers are seeking an easy path to power, lying to themselves that they can control their lust for more magic, and eventually they will fall into defilement. The preserver is the guy who says that his illicit use of Xanax is under control. Remember: Defilers effectively get a 40% XP bonus, get bonus spells prepared, and cast spells at higher caster levels. That's the carrot you're dangling in front of your players. There's a reason that the game lets preservers attempt to defile as often as they want, but only gives defilers exactly one attempt to reform (and doing so is as difficult as a paladin's atonement).

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that, narratively and thematically, perservers are easier to eliminate from Dark Sun that psionics is. Narratively, a preserver PC should risk defilement every time they cast a spell. They don't because that's not a good game design for the same reason that critical hit tables are typically not good game design. However, it's in line with the setting's narrative and theme. I would even go so far as to speculate that preservers only exist because TSR was afraid that not allowing PC magic-users in the setting would destroy it's playability. They knew that lots of people didn't really care for AD&D psionics, and wouldn't print a setting without magic-users. It's the same reason clerics "return" in DL1 and why you carry around a staff of healing before that: the central conceit collapses under the weight of sustained gameplay (i.e., it's so the poor sap you made into the cleric without spells doesn't feel useless any longer than absolutely necessary).

You can't use technology to replace psionics because resources are too scarce. There's no metal, no wood, not enough food for animal goods, etc. You can't build industry on Dark Sun unless it's a slave industry. Metal is so scarce that a chipped metal knife is virtually priceless.

You can't use divinity to replace psionics, either, because there are no gods around and just elements. Clerics and druids basically get what power they can that has been offered by the elements around them. From the same world that's being killed by the defilers, templars, and sorcerer-kings. That's why most clerics and druids are lone hermits. I think clerics would be easier to eliminate than psionics, too. I think they only stayed because the game was often miserable to play without a healer (in exchange for the game often being miserable to play for the healer themself). Druids I would be less willing to part with. I think they fit well in the setting.

So, what's left? Can't use magic because that's taken. Can't use divinity because that's deprecated. Can't use technology because that's unavailable.


Do you mean, "Why does a campaign setting in a high fantasy TTRPG game need mechanics for extraordinary and supernatural abilities for the players?"

Because that's what the designers thought a high fantasy TTRPG needed. That's what was expected from D&D. If there aren't magic-users, there had best be something close to it because that's one of the reasons people play D&D and not some other game.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Do you mean, "How do the setting mechanics change if psionics is removed?"

I don't know, what changes if you remove Thri-Kreen or Muls or Half-Giants? What if Elves weren't massive jerks? Does it need feral Halfings? What if the setting allowed Gnomes and Orcs and Paladins?

These are good questions -- does the setting change? I'd argue changing races is probably not much of a big deal, so long as replacements are suitably post-apoc. The themes shown by the races aren't specific to the races, but more that they changed existing races to fit a post-apoc theme and outlawed a few races that they felt didn't fit. There's no reason you can't fit them in, and no reason you should. Still, no one I know says things like "WotC needs to come up with a better Mul for Dark Sun!" They say that for psionics. My question is -- what does psionics actually do for the themes of Dark Sun outside of just being psionics?

If you're not going to keep the elements of the setting, why would you still call it Dark Sun? Rather, why would you not invent a better setting that fits the themes you'd rather explore instead of carving up Dark Sun? What do you gain by eliminating psionics other than avoiding the dog's breakfast of psionic class design for 5e? Why would you want to publish a setting with it's elements removed?

Slippery slope arguments aren't terribly convincing. Sure, at some point if you replace enough stuff you end up asking Ship of Theseus questions. I'm not asking people to defend everything, or suggesting nothing matters, I'm asking specifically why psionics matters. This argument is just chaff that doesn't address why psionics is important.

Do you mean "What thematic or narrative role does psionics fill in the game world of Dark Sun?"

The role of psionics is that it's the only righteous path. To make yourself better and use your will and effort to better the world. It represents the high fantasy way to do things right. It's no coincidence that the master of the Will and the Way in the novels was the most LG character in the series, nor was it a coincidence that all the bad guys used magic. The role of psionics is accomplishing everything that magic does without being magic.

You can't use magic for this narrative point because preservers are supposed to be inherently distrusted. Historically in the setting, preservers all eventually turn to defilement and need to be killed. That's what they do. That's why they're viewed suspiciously nearly as much as defilers. Hundreds or thousands of years ago the preservers said they'd keep themselves in check, and now the world is a dead wasteland. Even preservers are seeking an easy path to power, lying to themselves that they can control their lust for more magic, and eventually they will fall into defilement. The preserver is the guy who says that his illicit use of Xanax is under control. Remember: Defilers effectively get a 40% XP bonus, get bonus spells prepared, and cast spells at higher caster levels. That's the carrot you're dangling in front of your players. There's a reason that the game lets preservers attempt to defile as often as they want, but only gives defilers exactly one attempt to reform (and doing so is as difficult as a paladin's atonement).

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that, narratively and thematically, perservers are easier to eliminate from Dark Sun that psionics is. Narratively, a preserver PC should risk defilement every time they cast a spell. They don't because that's not a good game design for the same reason that critical hit tables are typically not good game design. However, it's in line with the setting's narrative and theme. I would even go so far as to speculate that preservers only exist because TSR was afraid that not allowing PC magic-users in the setting would destroy it's playability. They knew that lots of people didn't really care for AD&D psionics, and wouldn't print a setting without magic-users. It's the same reason clerics "return" in DL1 and why you carry around a staff of healing before that: the central conceit collapses under the weight of sustained gameplay (i.e., it's so the poor sap you made into the cleric without spells doesn't feel useless any longer than absolutely necessary).

You can't use technology to replace psionics because resources are too scarce. There's no metal, no wood, not enough food for animal goods, etc. You can't build industry on Dark Sun unless it's a slave industry. Metal is so scarce that a chipped metal knife is virtually priceless.

You can't use divinity to replace psionics, either, because there are no gods around and just elements. Clerics and druids basically get what power they can that has been offered by the elements around them. From the same world that's being killed by the defilers, templars, and sorcerer-kings. That's why most clerics and druids are lone hermits. I think clerics would be easier to eliminate than psionics, too. I think they only stayed because the game was often miserable to play without a healer (in exchange for the game often being miserable to play for the healer themself). Druids I would be less willing to part with. I think they fit well in the setting.

So, what's left? Can't use magic because that's taken. Can't use divinity because that's deprecated. Can't use technology because that's unavailable.


Do you mean, "Why does a campaign setting in a high fantasy TTRPG game need mechanics for extraordinary and supernatural abilities for the players?"

Because that's what the designers thought a high fantasy TTRPG needed. That's what was expected from D&D. If there aren't magic-users, there had best be something close to it because that's one of the reasons people play D&D and not some other game.

This is a reasonable argument, thanks. However, I think it starts too strong by saying that psionics is the only righteous path. This ignores that everyone uses it, and, in Athas, most of those people/things are using psionics for evil or selfish reasons. And, there's lots of other righteous paths available that don't require psionics. So, to boil this down to nuts and bolts, what you're saying is that psionics is the only way to use magic that isn't tainted by defiling. Sure, no argument, I pointed that out above in my last response to you that it's a pretty decent argument that some kind of magic system is important for a D&D game and, since DS has so strongly tainted arcane magic and nearly eliminated divine magic, that psionics is the answer. I can follow that. The moral arguments your making, though, don't hold much water without the argument that some form of non-evil magic has to exist. I'm not sure, though, that the latter is really a true statement.

I also think that Dark Sun is absolutely NOT High Fantasy. It's tropes do not align with high fantasy. Still, if you're arguing from the position that it is high fantasy, and therefore needs a non-evil magic system, that's, by far, the best argument I've see for psionics in Dark Sun yet. Kudos.

 

[Bacon Bits]

To your first, sure, no arguments, you can do what you want. That's not at all what my argument is, but we don't disagree here.

To your second, this is the argument from tradition. It has been done, so it must be done. That's fine, for what it is, my question wasn't "should psionics be removed from Dark Sun" but rather "does Dark Sun need psionics to be Dark Sun?" There's a difference, here.

I don't think there's a meaningful difference to these questions. Or, at least, not a useful difference. The latter rather prompts for the former.

Unless you're asking the question in only the most literal terms, in which case the answer is, "Obviously, no, you just put The Way of the Psionicist back in the box and rip out the Psionics pages from The Wanderer's Chronicle and The Way of Heroes and start play."

But you could do that with anything. Magic-users in Forgotten Realms. Dragons in Dragonlance. The City of Greyhawk in Greyhawk. Okay, but why should you? What do you get by doing that?

 

[Aldarc]

it occurred to me that the only importance that psionics really has to DS is the tradition -- removing it requires zero other change to the setting, and it's character doesn't alter at all.

This is a matter of opinion, and there are clearly people who disagree with you that the setting's character does change if you remove psionics, so I'm not sure if your great revelation is as self-evidently clear or true as you make it out to be.

largely, I think, because psionics doesn't fit well in the other setting at that time, so there it went.

You may be leaning into your own assumptions here.

it's a separate piece that doesn't strongly interact with the other setting elements.

It integrates with the harsh and alien world of Athas. The fact that you harp on one theme - defiler magic - does not somehow erase its integration into other setting elements.

That 4e, with it's radically different psionics system from 2e, did Dark Sun is strong proof that psionics aren't actually integral to the rest setting, they're just in there.

There is a jump of logic and rationality here, and I'm not sure how you are making the connection that a different system for psionics between editions somehow negates the importance of psionics to Dark Sun.

But what do you mean that they're just in there? The game says that most people in the world have some access to psionics via wild talents, which they can get for free at character creation. Psionics are probably the most ubiquitous supernatural powers in the entire setting. Plus, you earlier argued that the conflict of divine vs. arcane magic was an important dichotomy of the setting, but 4e also removed the divine power source entirely. So is this dichotomy really that important then? There is also a radically different arcane magic system in 4e than 2e. Should we argue that this likewise means that arcane magic of old wasn't integral to Dark Sun?

 

[GSHamster]

This is going to end up like the Greyhawk threads where no one can define what elements are actually necessary for the campaign setting.

I think the only truly necessary elements for Dark Sun are "harsh desert world", and "magic defiles the land".

But I would put psionics in the second tier with Sorcerer Kings, city-states, muls, thri-kreen, cannibal halflings, scumbag elves, no gods, etc. All the elements that aren't strictly necessary, but contribute to the overall tapestry.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Still, good news, you share traits with a past popular member of the boards!

What is wrong with you? You are gratuitously insulting, and then putting in nonsense?

I searched for that user. Doesn’t exist. I hope you’re laughing at whatever joke you think you’re pulling.

 

[MGibster]

There's absolutely no reason any one of us should be snarky or get worked up about what elements we prefer to have in our pretend elf (in a desert) game. I think we should focus on what we have in common. Like an agreement that anyone who puts ketchup on their steak is a monster.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I loved the Idea of having wild talents randomly determined. I never did in dark sun though. Somehow our dark sun games never really hit off.

 

[Ovinomancer]

What is wrong with you? You are gratuitously insulting, and then putting in nonsense?

I searched for that user. Doesn’t exist. I hope you’re laughing at whatever joke you think you’re pulling.

Well, yes, lowkey13 quit the boards and deleted their account, so that makes sense. There's no joke here, your posting is uncannily like his, and I thought you might be him, returning. No big, if you aren't, you aren't, no need to feel insulted. Consider it a non-issue.

 

[Laurefindel]

To a certain extent, I can agree that “it’s there by tradition” argument runs thin, buuuut, at the same time, if a traditional element contributed to make a setting popular, it become defining element of the said setting.

psionics aren’t necessary in a fantasy post-apocalyptic setting, but one could argue that psionics are a defining element of this fantasy post-apocalyptic setting. Personally, I don’t think psionics can be removed without altering my experience of Dark Sun.

[edit] however, I have no problems with “psionics” being refluffed sorcerers and bards, and wild talents the magical initiate feat