D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Ovinomancer]

If being invisible or behind a rock but otherwise within range of being noticed puts the outcome in doubt, then what’s hiding for?

This is why I say the default is being noticed -- because the hiding exists to explicitly change this and hiding isn't exactly easy. If the default position is not being noticed, then what is hiding doing and why?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

But there is a part that says that hidden is both unseen and unheard, so if you are either, you are not hidden. If you are both, you are hidden regardless of how you got that way.

How does one get to be both unseen and unheard in combat without the Hide action in 5e?

Yes and no. You wouldn't make the orc roll to perceive an opponent in combat who is visible. You only call for a roll if the outcome is in doubt. In a battle where lots and lots of noise is happening, to me the outcome of hearing a walking, invisible, unarmored creature is clearly in doubt. They would have to make a perception roll, even if the invisible creature is not hiding.

With that ruling, you've just made invisibility more powerful than the 5e rules state. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, but it is what it is. 5e rules would simply apply disadvantage to anyone trying to attack said invisible creature. You are essentially giving the PC/creature a free Hide action just for the sake of being invisible in a rowdy, noisy place, right? If the invisible PC/creature wanted to really be undetected in a rowdy combat, a DM might give them auto-success on their Hide action (or bonus action for Rogue), or perhaps give them advantage on the Stealth check to Hide given the noisy environment. But give them a free Hide without expending said Action? Not sure that position is really supported by the 5e rules.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If being invisible or behind a rock but otherwise within range of being noticed puts the outcome in doubt, then what’s hiding for?

Putting the outcome much more in doubt. Different DCs, advantages and disadvantages exist for a reason. In such a situation hiding roll would represent avoiding to making noise. Now obviously trying to detect someone based on the noise alone is much harder than if you can see them.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

How does one get to be both unseen and unheard in combat without the Hide action in 5e?

Combines use of invisibility and silence spells would achieve this. Or more mundanely standing silently behind a completely line of sight blocking terrain.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

This is why I say the default is being noticed -- because the hiding exists to explicitly change this and hiding isn't exactly easy. If the default position is not being noticed, then what is hiding doing and why?

There is no 'default position' because there is no default situation. What are the 'default' creatures involved, what is the 'default' ground like, what is the 'default' amount of ambient noise, what is the 'default' terrain like and what are the other 'default' obstacles and structures?

Hiding is for making you harder to detect than you would be otherwise. What that 'otherwise' is depends on myriad other variables.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Combines use of invisibility and silence spells would achieve this.

Requires some coordination with allies as both are concentration spells, but that is certainly a good example of becoming unseen and unheard without using the Hide Action.

Or more mundanely standing silently behind a completely line of sight blocking terrain.

So you might give them a free Hide without having to expend the Action?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So you might give them a free Hide without having to expend the Action?

Sure. They don't even need to be able to take an action. A person lying unconscious behind a completely LOS blocking terrain is pretty dam well hidden (assuming that no one saw them to collapse there of course.)

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Sure. They don't even need to be able to take an action. A person lying unconscious behind a completely LOS blocking terrain is pretty dam well hidden (assuming that no one saw them to collapse there of course.)

They are technically taking the Hide action if you give them the benefits of hiding and they do not take another action.

A related question is: would you let them take another action before or after doing something that sounds a lot like trying to Hide in combat ("mundanely standing silently behind a completely line of sight blocking terrain.")?

(A person lying unconscious can't take an action anyway so is not really relevant to the question at hand - not to mention there is no guarantee they are being silent in their possible death throes/throws or even if they are just asleep.)

 

[Maxperson]

If being invisible or behind a rock but otherwise within range of being noticed puts the outcome in doubt, then what’s hiding for?

Setting DC. Without it you're at the DM mercy on that and it very often won't be nearly as high.

 

[Maxperson]

How does one get to be both unseen and unheard in combat without the Hide action in 5e?

You could be beyond hearing range in a battle. That's a DM call. Combat is very loud and even though you are aware of your surroundings, you can't focus on them without ending up dead. Your focus is the enemy trying to kill you, so an invisible opponent 100 feet away is very likely to be unheard.

You could also be under the effects of silence.

With that ruling, you've just made invisibility more powerful than the 5e rules state. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, but it is what it is. 5e rules would simply apply disadvantage to anyone trying to attack said invisible creature. You are essentially giving the PC/creature a free Hide action just for the sake of being invisible in a rowdy, noisy place, right?

No. I don't ask for a hide roll. I simply set a DC to notice the "hidden" PC and go from there. If the Invisible PC want control over the DC, because rolled hide check will often be higher that ser DCs, he can use an action to do so.

For example, if an invisible PC is in a noisy tavern, but is not trying to be quiet, I'd set a moderate DC to detect. It's pretty easy to exceed that with a hide roll, even at level 1. At mid and high levels you will exceed a lot.