D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Flamestrike]

I'm the OP of the thread, my goodness this has started quite the discussion!

So listening to all of the arguments so far, I think its quite clear that the monk in my situation should not automatically be hidden after he attacks and moves 100 ft. Aka he has to do "SOMETHING" to be undetected even while invisible.

So then it comes down to how much is "acceptable". Obviously there is always the full hide action, which is a significant investment to maintain your stealth. Perhaps I could consider a bonus action when invisible....it still requires some action (and in the monk's case that is not a trivial investment)...but its not the full degree. This would represent being stealthy while invisible still requires effort....but it is easy easier than regular stealth in terms of time investment.

The Hide action is a single action and you remain hidden till you reveal yourself.

You can move, search, cast some spells, and do anything else in subsequent rounds other than attack or do something else (yell something out etc) that reveals you.

In order to be found while hidden your opponent needs to take the Search action in subsequent rounds to find you (presuming he doesn't reveal himself somehow). When they succeed, youre found.

The action economy is preserved and it all balances out.

Notably Rogues of 2nd level or higher who are invisible can attack and then totally dissapear via the Hide action as a bonus action every single round.

With expertise in Stealth, they're all but assured of this each round.

Action surging fighters can Attack then Hide. Sorcerers can quicken spells and Hide in the same turn as well. High level rangers can so the same with Vanish.

Your monk can Attack, then move away, then Dash and then Hide. It'll just take him 2 turns to do it instead of 1.

Its a question of action economy only.

 

[Maxperson]

Right, so while you alertly went into the room, the goblins ran around you and blocked the door before you could get back to it. What's your alternative narrative, that you were frozen in time while they did that?

That would be impossible, though. There's no way that one, let alone all ten, could discover me and move 60 feet to block me off before I can move ten feet. Clearly I was frozen somehow, or else I'd be out the door.

 

[Stalker0]

Your monk can Attack, then move away, then Dash and then Hide. It'll just take him 2 turns to do it instead of 1.

Its a question of action economy only.

Its always been a question of action economy. Its the simple notion that in a normal combat of 3 turns, taking 2 turns to establish stealth is effectively not having stealth.

I'm just trying to decide if I'm okay with that even under situations of greater invis.

 

[Flamestrike]

Its always been a question of action economy. Its the simple notion that in a normal combat of 3 turns, taking 2 turns to establish stealth is effectively not having stealth.

I'm just trying to decide if I'm okay with that even under situations of greater invis.

Rogues can do it every single turn. Sorcerers can also quicken invisibility and then Hide with their action on a single turn.

A wizard who casts Invisibility is partly hidden (invisible) only till the start of their next turn. They cant be targeted with AoO or most spells, and all attacks against them have disadvantage.

At the start of their next turn they can attempt to Hide.

 

[Hriston]

That would be impossible, though. There's no way that one, let alone all ten, could discover me and move 60 feet to block me off before I can move ten feet. Clearly I was frozen somehow, or else I'd be out the door.

Why is it impossible? Your example keeps getting more elaborate, and you seem to have assumptions about the situation that aren’t apparent to me. There’s nothing impossible about someone moving to block a door as you enter a room to prevent you from leaving, so you’ll have to explain why that’s the case in this particular situation.

 

[Flamestrike]

Im sorry, I have Maxperson on ignore.

Is he genuinely trying to argue that the turn/ round stop/ start nature of abstract combat rounds is reflective of some real world reality?

Everyone is standing around frozen in time while people take individual moves like chess pieces?

If so, why is anyone bothering to argue with that?

 

[Flamestrike]

It is exactly the role of a DM to recognize when a rule can't apply because of unforseen circumstances that the rule does not cover.
This is one of those cases. Had it been a simple character unable to move away so fast, I would side with @Flamestrike 's ruling in a pinch. But it ain't so. It is a new ball game not really covered by the rule.

@Flamestrike even provided us with a quote from the creator going toward our view point but reaches an opposite conclusion. But dear @iserith you're right, to each table its own...

Edit: Probably a case where specific beats general?

But the dash action is NOT a case unforseen by the rules.

Again; you could easily hear someone sprinting on a city street at night (in the dark) at a distance of 100' (which is the furthest away the Monk got). Even someone wearing training shoes. If you had your eyes closed and they started next to you, and then ran off, you could easily tell which way they were going, and roughly how far away from you they were. With that information you could reasonably pinpoint their general vicinity reliably enough to fire a few shots in their direction with a handgun, and have a reasonable chance of hitting (make an attack roll at disadvantage).

I see zero authority in the scenario proposed to deviate from the RAW and RAI that the Monk must make a Stealth check via the Hide action to be hidden. Far from choosing to be stealthy and hide, he has chosen to do the exact opposite - he has chosen to reveal himself from hiding, attack someone and sprint away.

Now that he is 100' away he can immediately attempt to Hide. I agree with you here. But he has to do so on his next turn via the Hide action (he's out of actions this turn, due to doing things other than attempting to be stealthy).

In the few seconds (of this round) that he is attacking and sprinting he is open to attack (at disadvantage) from nearby enemies.

 

[Helldritch]

But the dash action is NOT a case unforseen by the rules.

Again; you could easily hear someone sprinting on a city street at night (in the dark) at a distance of 100' (which is the furthest away the Monk got). Even someone wearing training shoes. If you had your eyes closed and they started next to you, and then ran off, you could easily tell which way they were going, and roughly how far away from you they were. With that information you could reasonably pinpoint their general vicinity reliably enough to fire a few shots in their direction with a handgun, and have a reasonable chance of hitting (make an attack roll at disadvantage).

I see zero authority in the scenario proposed to deviate from the RAW and RAI that the Monk must make a Stealth check via the Hide action to be hidden. Far from choosing to be stealthy and hide, he has chosen to do the exact opposite - he has chosen to reveal himself from hiding, attack someone and sprint away.

Now that he is 100' away he can immediately attempt to Hide. I agree with you here. But he has to do so on his next turn via the Hide action (he's out of actions this turn, due to doing things other than attempting to be stealthy).

In the few seconds (of this round) that he is attacking and sprinting he is open to attack (at disadvantage) from nearby enemies.

All your examples requires us to stay put, quiet and hear the guy running a 100 feet away. Good.
Now, do the same thing in a Wall Mart. You will hear everyone else but the runner.

Our guards are running. They are shouting for help and even their armor is making noise. And god is chain mail noisy. They are not standing still and silent. No way they will hear the monk from 50 to 75 feet away. Absolutely now way. Unless are guards are now Daredevil's clones?

Again, if the monk had stayed and fight, you'd be perfectly right.

 

[Flamestrike]

All your examples requires us to stay put, quiet and hear the guy running a 100 feet away. Good.
Now, do the same thing in a Wall Mart. You will hear everyone else but the runner.

You can clearly hear someone running in a crowded supermarket. If they started next to you, and you were blinded, you could hear them for several seconds (enough to squeeze off a few shots in their direction as they were running away, at disadvantage).

Our guards are running. They are shouting for help and even their armor is making noise. And god is chain mail noisy. They are not standing still and silent. No way they will hear the monk from 50 to 75 feet away.

They heard where the Monk went. The Monk attacked them, screaming his Ki shout and throwing punches and kicks and going 'hee-yah' revealing himself from hiding, and then used the Dash action to run away. This is agreed.

I'm assuming the Guard (on his turn) chased after the Monk (also Dashing) to move 60'.

So by the end of the round, the Monk has pulled 40' away with the Guard on his tail the whole way.

At no stage in the six seconds or so the round represented was the Monk 100' away from the Guards and standing still, despite his miniature being stationary 20 squares away from the Guards for most of the Round. For most of the round he was punching, screaming and kicking, with the guard his target, and then chasing after him and hot on his tail the whole way.

 

[Helldritch]

1) If you're guards attack, the monk is at 70 to 75 feet away already when they get to act.
2) The simultanous aspect of the game is lost because of sequential initiative.
3) If they moved 50 to 60 (depending on if they have the strength for chain mail), they will not attack anyways. The monk feared nothing and as you said, will be fully silent on round 2.
4) This means that if you insist on the simultanous thing of event, the monk is a one stage 20 further than the guards, then 25, 30, 35 and 40 (up to 50 feet if they don't have the required strength for chain mail.)
5) When you are running, you are at disadvantage on perception check. They will not hear the monk running.
6) Nothing prevents the monk from changing direction. They are running, they are not listening as you are implying from the beginning. So no they don't hear the monk and no they can not determine his position. They go in the assumed direction.

7) Real world example.
No you won't hear the guy running in a wall mart with your eyes closed and if there is a lot of noise. That is why you have to be careful around blind persons, even if they are very perceptive with their hearing because they won't hear you if there is too much noise. You must approach them with caution and respect. If they can't hear you, I doubt that the guards will have the training in blind fighting/detecting to do even better.

Now let's reverse the problem.
The monk is invisible. You play the guards, you're the DM. It is the turn of the monk to act.
Close your eyes.
Ask the monk's player to move the mini. Let him/her note the position. Let her/him remove the mini and open your eyes.
Ask the player the general direction he/she went.
Make your move. What do your guards need to do?
A perception check, disadvantage if they are running.

This is how I play the invisibility by the way. I do not look when the players are making their move and I note the movement on a paper as to be honnest with them.

BUT
If the players or the enemy stays in hand to hand, the rule apply as RAW.


Also... When attacked, the guard will probably not even pursue. The normal reaction will be to take the dodge action and scream for help (but that is an other debate).