D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Hriston]

Go find a friend. While both of you are ready have him 50 feet from you, and you 10 feet from the finish line. Let him start moving doesn't and see if he can beat you to the line.

If I give him enough of a head start that he passes by me, I'm sure he could beat me to the line. I'm not sure what the problem is you're having with initiative. The goblins won, so what they're trying to do happens first.

 

[Maxperson]

If I give him enough of a head start that he passes by me, I'm sure he could beat me to the line. I'm not sure what the problem is you're having with initiative. The goblins won, so what they're trying to do happens first.

Sure. If you stand there instead of trying to move.....................like happens with D&D initiative, they can pass you. If you actually engage in anything close to simultaneous movement, you'll reach it first.

 

[Maxperson]

Your PC isn't just sitting there. Presumably, your PC is still doing whatever it was doing before the round started, possibly taking too long to decide what to do about the new developments. You have to back fill the fiction so it makes sense.

No. My PC started moving the instant he saw the goblins. I declared it. The dice don't get to play my character and force it "take too long to decide." any more than the DM gets to play my character.

I get to declare what my PC is doing and the initiative just decides who goes first. That's it. The narrative doesn't get to play my character against my will just to weakly justify something kinda sorta close to simultaneous movement(But not really, because it's impossible under D&D rules).

 

[Maxperson]

It's up to the DM whether you're going to make a Wisdom (Perception) check to overhear a conversation in a loud tavern 30 feet away. You seem to assert here that there will be one and it will somehow be inconsistent with the rules for hiding. That's not a given.

I think an overwhelming majority of DMs would just refuse or call for a roll. Would all of them? No, so you are technically correct that it's not a given.

I think in terms of consistency, the DM that cleaves to the rules as much as possible with the odd exception here and there is likely to have a game that is more consistent for the players than one where the players have to figure out what the DM is thinking about a given fictional situation. My players know that unless I've established some specific exception at the outset (or one arises, such as someone casting a silence spell for the invisible PC to be in), they're going to have to take the Hide action to become hidden. They can make informed decisions on that basis without a lot of sidebars with the DM to hash that out.

Wrong kind of consistency. I'm talking about consistency in the fiction which is far, FAR more important than blindly obeying rules that become borked in situations they aren't meant to handle, so that you can be consistent with the rules. The DMG says this...

"The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM, and you are in charge of the game." When the rules interfere with reasonable outcomes, to the point where you're going to rule that you hear a still wizard that's 30 feet away while 8 giants roar war cries and bang giant metal shields and swords, and their elephant mounts trumpet loudly, the rule should be changed for that circumstance. Blindly obeying the rules in that situation results in an utterly ludicrous result.

 

[iserith]

I think an overwhelming majority of DMs would just refuse or call for a roll. Would all of them? No, so you are technically correct that it's not a given.

Victory.

Wrong kind of consistency. I'm talking about consistency in the fiction which is far, FAR more important than blindly obeying rules that become borked in situations they aren't meant to handle, so that you can be consistent with the rules. The DMG says this...

"The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM, and you are in charge of the game." When the rules interfere with reasonable outcomes, to the point where you're going to rule that you hear a still wizard that's 30 feet away while 8 giants roar war cries and bang giant metal shields and swords, and their elephant mounts trumpet loudly, the rule should be changed for that circumstance. Blindly obeying the rules in that situation results in an utterly ludicrous result.

Yeah, you might notice upthread I've as much as the bit you bolded. You have a lot of work to do to show I'm advocating blindly following rules. As far as the consistency in the fiction, all you're really doing is admitting to a failure of imagination to make it all fit.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, you might notice upthread I've as much as the bit you bolded. You have a lot of work to do to show I'm advocating blindly following rules. As far as the consistency in the fiction, all you're really doing is admitting to a failure of imagination to make it all fit.

Not really. I can imagine all kinds of absurd ways to justify things. Absurd and weak justifications aren't enjoyable. I know my PC didn't just stand there gaping like an idiot while 10 goblins all moved 50 feet towards him. There's no reasonable justification under the scenario I provided for why he just stood there and let them all go by him and cut him off.

D&D's combat rules are a necessary evil to play the game. I accept that rather than try silly justifications in order to achieve nearly simultaneous actions.

 

[iserith]

Not really. I can imagine all kinds of absurd ways to justify things. Absurd and weak justifications aren't enjoyable. I know my PC didn't just stand there gaping like an idiot while 10 goblins all moved 50 feet towards him. There's no reasonable justification under the scenario I provided for why he just stood there and let them all go by him and cut him off.

Yeah dude, I don't even know what you're talking about in that side-thread. I haven't been following it for the reasons I cited upthread: Discussing examples of a fictional situation is pointless when two people are trying to prove the other wrong.

But I also know you're smart enough to come up with justifications that aren't absurd and weak. So, you know, just do that. If you say you can't, then you're admitting to a failure of your own imagination and I'm not sure that's what you mean to do.

 

[Hriston]

Sure. If you stand there instead of trying to move.....................like happens with D&D initiative, they can pass you. If you actually engage in anything close to simultaneous movement, you'll reach it first.

You're assuming combat begins with a starting gun with everyone starting at the same time. I'm saying that when your turn begins is staggered based on your initiative. You weren't necessarily just standing there before your turn began. You were doing whatever it is you were doing before combat began. Do you mind telling me, in your goblin example, what you were doing before initiative was rolled?

No. My PC started moving the instant he saw the goblins. I declared it. The dice don't get to play my character and force it "take too long to decide." any more than the DM gets to play my character.

Aren't you the one saying that the turn-based initiative system is playing your PC and forcing your character to stand still doing nothing while goblins run circles around you? And now you're saying you can move instantly. Which is it?

I get to declare what my PC is doing and the initiative just decides who goes first. That's it.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Initiative decides (among other things) who starts moving first. The goblins started moving the 60 feet to the door far enough ahead of your character that by the time your character could have made it to the door, the goblins already would have been there.

The narrative doesn't get to play my character against my will just to weakly justify something kinda sorta close to simultaneous movement(But not really, because it's impossible under D&D rules).

No, of course not, I was describing something the player could say about their character, not the DM (or "the narrative"). I'll repeat what I've said a few times now. While the goblins are moving the fifty or so feet toward the door in order for them to get ahead of you, your character is doing whatever you, the player said you were doing before initiative was rolled. Now what is that exactly?

 

[Maxperson]

You're assuming combat begins with a starting gun with everyone starting at the same time. I'm saying that when your turn begins is staggered based on your initiative. You weren't necessarily just standing there before your turn began. You were doing whatever it is you were doing before combat began. Do you mind telling me, in your goblin example, what you were doing before initiative was rolled?

I already said. The PC walked 10 feet into the room and saw the goblins, then turned to leave immediately. The goblins were unaware of the PC until he walked into the room. There is no surprise.

Aren't you the one saying that the turn-based initiative system is playing your PC and forcing your character to stand still doing nothing while goblins run circles around you? And now you're saying you can move instantly. Which is it?

I'm saying turned based initiative is the lesser evil that is accepted, because trying to go simultaneous results in too much absurdity.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Initiative decides (among other things) who starts moving first. The goblins started moving the 60 feet to the door far enough ahead of your character that by the time your character could have made it to the door, the goblins already would have been there.

Those 10 goblins would make it 5-10 feet max before the PC started moving towards the door he is 10 feet away from. The goblins cannot possibly get there before the PC does.

No, of course not, I was describing something the player could say about their character, not the DM (or "the narrative"). I'll repeat what I've said a few times now. While the goblins are moving the fifty or so feet toward the door in order for them to get ahead of you, your character is doing whatever you, the player said you were doing before initiative was rolled. Now what is that exactly?

Alertly going into the room. If I see anything, I leave and get to the rest of the group.

 

[Hriston]

I already said. The PC walked 10 feet into the room and saw the goblins, then turned to leave immediately. The goblins were unaware of the PC until he walked into the room. There is no surprise.



I'm saying turned based initiative is the lesser evil that is accepted, because trying to go simultaneous results in too much absurdity.




Those 10 goblins would make it 5-10 feet max before the PC started moving towards the door he is 10 feet away from. The goblins cannot possibly get there before the PC does.



Alertly going into the room. If I see anything, I leave and get to the rest of the group.

Right, so while you alertly went into the room, the goblins ran around you and blocked the door before you could get back to it. What's your alternative narrative, that you were frozen in time while they did that?