D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[iserith]

That portion of the Hide section is also telling the DM that he should be aware that special circumstances should allow special hiding.

You say this as if the DM making the decision as to this is somehow in dispute.

 

[Maxperson]

You say this as if the DM making the decision as to this is somehow in dispute.

I say this as if the DM is SUPPOSED to make the decision when circumstances warrant. I'd be rather upset if I were the invisible wizard in your game standing still, yet was still heard by the half dozen screaming giants riding trumpeting elephants. It's your job to take those sorts of considerations into account and make a ruling that's appropriate to the fiction.

 

[iserith]

I say this as if the DM is SUPPOSED to make the decision when circumstances warrant. I'd be rather upset if I were the invisible wizard in your game standing still, yet was still heard by the half dozen screaming giants riding trumpeting elephants. It's your job to take those sorts of considerations into account and make a ruling that's appropriate to the fiction.

It's never been about whether the DM makes the decision or not, but what the line is, which will vary by DM. And then some silliness about a poorly-written feral senses ability proving anything about the general rules for hiding.

Your poor, poor invisible wizard in my game is just going to have to console himself with all the other great benefits of being invisible until he takes the Hide action. Sorry if that ruins your game experience.

 

[Hriston]

The absurd part is the distance involved. 50 feet is waaaaay too far for them to get enough of a jump to pass an alert individual who spotted the goblins at the same time as they spotted him, and who is only 10 feet from the exit(60 feet from goblins). Even if he was somehow started, despite being alert, if combat were simultaneous they couldn't get more than 20 feet before the PC is moving for the exit.

Oh I see, you're looking to the preexisting (pre-initiative roll) fiction to explain why the goblins are able to get to the door first and you're not seeing it because it isn't there. It can't be because initiative hasn't decided that outcome yet. The earliest it can come in is where I inserted the DM saying, "if you lose, the goblins will have gotten the drop on you", in the setting of stakes before the roll. I meant got the drop on in the sense of obtaining an advantage over someone, by acting before them. We can reach even further back into the fiction to establish some way the goblins were able to act before the PC, maybe they had a lookout who was watching the door so were already in motion as the PC entered, maybe they had a shortcut to the door and popped out ahead of the PC, it doesn't matter, but we can't establish those things before initiative is rolled because we don't yet know what outcome the fiction needs to support.

 

[Hriston]

Curiously, the way I handle noise levels in my games, which I talked about a little up-thread, makes the second paragraph of Feral Senses actually worth something, given that I'm using an admittedly strained interpretation of hidden from to mean "has won a Stealth/Perception contest with". It works like this: If a creature is trying to hide, I consider any noise they might make to be at the "trying to be quiet" level for which I roll 2d6 and multiply by 5 for a range of 10-60 feet. Beyond that distance, it cannot be heard and, unless some circumstance dictates otherwise, is unnoticed. Only within that 10-60 foot radius is its detection dependent on the result of a Dex (Stealth) check. In this way, you can have a creature that's trying to hide and has a failing Stealth check result and yet remains unnoticed because its too far away to be heard. So when the audible distance roll comes up 5 and below, giving a distance under 30 feet, Feral Senses can come in and allow the ranger to detect an invisible creature that would otherwise go unnoticed. Of course, I have yet to see this in play because no one in my group has played a ranger up to 18th level.

 

[Flamestrike]

Hey, don't leave yet! I have one more question.



Ok, so essentially, since Hide is an action, you cannot hide and attack in the same round unless you are a rogue with cunning action.

Illegal Action Economy (order of action not really important):

1. Cantrip attack
2. Bonus action improved invisibility
3. move action with a stealth check.

Since 1 and 3 are both actions (not including the actual movement), you can't do both.

Broadly speaking unless you have cunning action or a similar ability, on the round you make an attack from hiding while invisible youre vulnerable till the start of your next turn (at which point you can again attempt to Hide).

For a few seconds of in game time, nearby creatures can attack you at disadvantage.

 

[Flamestrike]

Right. So I actually finally listened what Crawford says on that podcast.

It took you that long?

He clearly states the intent of the rules is that creatures (as a general rule) know the rough approximate location of nearby invisible creatures that are not also hidden (have yet to take the Hide action).

The invisible (but not hidden) creature gains all the benefits of the invisible condition making them immune to being targeted with most spells and special abilities (due to their location not being known well enough) and you get disadvantage to hit them.

In order for them to become hidden, the intent of the rules is they must take the Hide action (and succeed on a Stealth check). They can do this (as an Action) at will

He notes that there MAY be corner cases that exclude the need for a Hide action and Stealth check. An invisible Pixie hovering 200' away from the battle, near a raging waterfall for example. Or (his example) an invisible creature a fair way away from the combat while 'barrels of gunpowder' are going off and his opponents are distracted by a raging Barbarian screaming at them.

-----------------------

The general rule is that once you are no longer hidden (but are still invisible) you lose the benefits of being hidden (but retain the benefits of being invisible) until you again successfully hide again, via the Hide action,

Your location is still not known with any level of precision. Nearby creatures (for this round at least) can lob a few shots off in your direction (at disadvantage) or swing a sword wildly in your general area (making a melee attack at disadvantage). They cant target you with most spells or special abilities however, and you can simply re enter Hiding whenever you want, usually as an Action (Bonus action for Rogues and high level Rangers, and Shadow Demons, and Goblins etc).

On your very next turn, you can again Hide, via the Hide action. If you succeed, your opponent cant target you with any attacks at all barring a lucky guess.

Think of it as you attacking while invisible, your opponent screaming out in pain and then retaliating by shooting or swinging swords in your general direction in response.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It took you that long?

Yes, because the discussion has been what is RAW and Crawford's musings do not change that. If we wants to alter what the rules say he has power to issue erratas. And of course like with the rules, you overinterpret the podcast too. The intents is that the rules are vague intentionally and can support different approaches for handling this.

And personally I feel that Daredevil interpretation is blatantly absurd.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes, because the discussion has been what is RAW and Crawford's musings do not change that.

OK I admit it. You're doing it right and the rest of the world barring @Helldritch (but including the guy that wrote the rules) are doing it wrong.

Jebers man. Youre utterly totally and hopelessly wrong here. I dont know how else I can show that to you. I've tried showing you the rules, and Ive referred to consenus, and I've even given you commentary from the guy that wrote the rules on how it's supposed to work.

Please, pause for a second and consider the fact that you might actually be wrong.

And personally I feel that Daredevil interpretation is blatantly absurd.

THERE IS NO DAREDEVIL INTERPRETATION.

When you make an attack from Hiding, you reveal yourself for a few seconds (till the start of your next turn when you can again take the Hide action if you want).

If you want to run around the battlefield making absolutely NO effort to be quiet while invisible (represented in game via the Hide action) that's on you.

As long as you do so (race around not making any effort to hide, be quiet or conceal your location) nearby enemies can make SOME attacks against you (at disadvantage). They cant make opportunity attacks, they cant cast most spells on you, and you're immune to being targeted by multiple special abilities.

They have a very (very) rough idea of your general location, because you're making no effort to be quiet and hide while invisible.

Lucky for you you're invisible. You can attempt to Hide (as an action) whenever you darn well want to.

Daredevil has Blindsight. You cant hide from him ever within his Blindsight radius even if you wanted to and had a Stealth bonus of +50, if you were hidden, and he moves so you're inside his blindsight range, he automatically detects you, he doesn't need sight to target you with his attacks and spells, and can 'see' you without sight (so no disadvantage to his attacks, and you'll never have advantage against him due to being invisible or hidden).

That's a pretty huge difference.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

OK I admit it. You're doing it right and the rest of the world barring @Helldritch (but including the guy that wrote the rules) are doing it wrong.

Jebers man. Youre utterly totally and hopelessly wrong here. I don't know how else I can show that to you. I've tried showing you the rules, and Ive referred to consensus, and I've even given you commentary from the guy that wrote the rules on how it's supposed to work.

Please, pause for a second and consider the fact that you might actually be wrong.

I am not wrong about what is actually written in the rules. The thing is not defined in the rules with the clarity you claim and we have both heard Crawford say that this is intentional. I have never claimed that rules support my handling of this as only correct one (granted, unlike you, I don't actually need to ignore Feral Senses) merely that they don't support your position either. It is undefined. There literally is no one correct answer to how to run this as they intentionally didn't put it in the rules. It is not there, the guy who wrote rules said that they didn't put it there on purpose. It is you who are being obtuse by not accepting that.

THERE IS NO DAREDEVIL INTERPRETATION.

When you make an attack from Hiding, you reveal yourself for a few seconds (till the start of your next turn when you can again take the Hide action if you want).

If you want to run around the battlefield making absolutely NO effort to be quiet while invisible (represented in game via the Hide action) that's on you.

As long as you do so (race around not making any effort to hide, be quiet or conceal your location) nearby enemies can make SOME attacks against you (at disadvantage). They cant make opportunity attacks, they cant cast most spells on you, and you're immune to being targeted by multiple special abilities.

They have a very (very) rough idea of your general location, because you're making no effort to be quiet and hide while invisible.

Lucky for you you're invisible. You can attempt to Hide (as an action) whenever you darn well want to.

That one might be able to attack a foe that just hit them and is now running away with mere disadvantage is probably reasonable, but that they would be able to continue to automatically track position of that foe for several turns when they are running around, possibly at considerable distance is laughable. And of course there easily could be several foes that they cannot see, moving about in different parts of the battlefield among all the other chaos. If the absurdity of this doesn't dawn on you when we start to consider blindness I really don't know what to tell you.