D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Istbor]

So true. My guys would carp on that endlessly, and immediately scheme on how to get food up into the area to sell at exorbitant prices. And then question every aspect of the story 'because if we're supposed to ignore the food issue, how can we trust...'.

And say hurtful things about my decision to run a pile of for them.

I'm sorry you have to experience this. Every time I run a campaign, a published adventure, or a homebrewed world, I have a session zero to ensure my players want to play in it. That they accept the premise and understand the theme topics we are going for in the current adventure. It really sucks that some people still have to fight their own players, when trying to host a good time.

Once I started doing this and getting the whole groups buy in, things have never been smoother, and that feeling of if I am doing something wrong or the story isn't fun slips away.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Maybe it’s cool to trash WOC, everyone likes an underdog. I just question when people are inaccurate in order to make their point cool.

View attachment 127230
The circumstances the Ten Towns are experiencing are not ‘a bit rough, but not terribly so’.

If people want to criticize a product for being accurate it helps if they too are accurate.

I did. The winter has lasted two years, during which time everything got along okay enough to survive 2 years of winter and darkness. It's now that things are threatened. What changed? This isn't a terrible question to ask, and it only takes a paragraph or two to explain -- I'm not looking for an ecological treatise or anything related to how the world works; I'm perfectly willing to accept a wide range of fantastic explanations. But, and this is important, there needs to be some breakpoint that explains why the last 2 years didn't threaten everything but this next one does. I mean, in that paragraph, why do things that need sunlight and change of seasons to survive manage to last through two years of neither but now are up against the wall? The basis for the sense of urgency -- for the call for heroes -- is very shallow. It might be enough for some, but it's going to sit poorly for me.

Now, do I think that WotC is a bunch of hacks for this -- that they pour out slop? Nope. This is, frankly, a pretty easy oversight to make -- you start with a premise and work out a cool adventure and polish but during that process the needs of later parts require a change to the starting premise but it's kinda small so you don't go back and revisit and rebalance the premise and you end up with this. It's something that can be worked through pretty easily, though. The easiest solution just shortening the winter from over 2 years to something like a cool summer the year before and now, a few months into winter, the season's not changing but getting worse. THAT's the point you start to worry and makes for a better crisis footing to attract the heroes needed to solve it. Two years of winter but now it's a problem? That's not great. But it isn't sufficiently to tar WotC with the useless hack brush -- adventure writing is hard, and there are deadlines, and the vast majority of the material is good. I cracked SKT like an egg and scrambled the pieces because the throughline WotC had didn't work for me, but the pieces were fantastic. I don't fault WotC for this -- my needs for story are mine and I don't expect WotC to be able to write my stories for me all the time. Rime also has good bones, but I'll be re-piecing them because I'm not terrible fond of some of their choices. Again, not WotC being hacks, but me being me.

 

[Azzy]

I think you are being too generous. At least pop music has a catchy beat and provides some entertainment until it quickly fades into obscurity. New WOTC releases are just garbage.

 

[TheSword]

Luckily I'm only 27, so I don't think that middle age gamers comment was at me, eh?

Anyway, the reason you think our argument is silly is because you really just don't respect the things that we are saying. You don't respect our arguments. You don't respect our ideas on what makes a quality story. For you, you want to just have a good, fun time, and you have your own image of what that is. That's great! But when people are saying that it isn't as fun for them, and then give structured arguments on it, and you respond that we just want Firewood Gathering rules, that's bad faith. You haven't responded to us. You haven't discussed our points. All you've done is reduce us to a strawman that has nothing to do what we're talking about, and you've used that to dismiss our arguments. I see this kind of thing go on in every thread on Enworld, and it always grinds my gears, because some of you people really just refuse to treat anyone else's ideas with any kind of respect.

Most of your post btw doesn't touch on any argument anyone has made. Guess you'd rather debate with imaginary middle aged gamers than the real people in this thread.

I don’t think is a fair response. The points have been discussed. There are two main points raised:

• Lack of sustained sunlight
• Low temperatures

Both of which would result in massive ecological collapse.

The responses I’ve seen include:

• It’s a magical world with magical animals and plants.
• The ecology of a fantasy world can be better adapted to extremes.
• Druids can help keep ecology alive more than we could expect.
• Priests would be expected to support their communities with magic where possible
• Winter stores would exist that would allow people and livestock to survive albeit weakened and in a depleted state.
• Icy temperatures would allow food to be preserved far longer than would be expected normally.
• Hunting and fishing still exist.
• The winter has not necessarily always been this bad, it could easily have progressed over time.
• It isn’t pitch black (the sun just hasn’t risen over the horizon so there absolutely is daylight every day, just not very much and not for long.
• Temperatures are average in the wilderness not in protected buildings, carefully designed settlements, crags, ravines, pine forests, glacier lees.
• Finally the most important argument to my mind. Things are really really bad here, sacrifice to evil gods, cannibalism, mass starvation and horror are not measures of a society thriving. People are suffering from the issues and are on their last legs. They are doomed if the heroes don’t act. Don’t worry about calculating precisely when this should have happened. It happens when the PCs arrive.
• Finally if you really really can’t accept these points. Simply change the phrase ‘two years’ to ‘six months’ and then you get the real world accuracy you crave.

None of these solutions are difficult, none are outside of common sense. However there are people who claim these need handing to them on a dinner plate. It also seems those complaining most are those who purportedly craft their own stories and adventures so why do they need the help? These people also write WOC off as trash and claim not to buy the products.

 

[Guest User]

Luckily I'm only 27, so I don't think that middle age gamers comment was at me, eh?

The comment is aimed at me, who is a middle aged gamer. I get jaded.
I find that playing reminds me, the point of the game is fun with my friends.
Anything else, grand themes, an Oscar worthy RP portrayal is bonus points.

But when people are saying that it isn't as fun for them, and then give structured arguments on it, and you respond that we just want Firewood Gathering rules, that's bad faith

Aesthetics are subjective. If the themes of a module turn you off, cool.
If the structure of a module turns you off..also cool.

Yet, to others what turns You off, makes no difference whatsoever.

I like to tinker, so adjusting things is part of the fun.

You might feel differently. I don't share your feelings. I respect your right to have your viewpoint, while at the same time feeling the opposite.
I don't share your feelings. You don't share mine.

Essentially, it reads like you are stating that the failure on my part to be swayed by the arguments proffered on why Rime is so evidently terrible, means I'm being dishonest ?

The arguments made were not convincing, to me.
I made counter arguments.
Are you claiming that not being swayed is evidence of malfeasance?

Wow.

 

[TheSword]

I did. The winter has lasted two years, during which time everything got along okay enough to survive 2 years of winter and darkness. It's now that things are threatened. What changed? This isn't a terrible question to ask, and it only takes a paragraph or two to explain -- I'm not looking for an ecological treatise or anything related to how the world works; I'm perfectly willing to accept a wide range of fantastic explanations. But, and this is important, there needs to be some breakpoint that explains why the last 2 years didn't threaten everything but this next one does. I mean, in that paragraph, why do things that need sunlight and change of seasons to survive manage to last through two years of neither but now are up against the wall? The basis for the sense of urgency -- for the call for heroes -- is very shallow. It might be enough for some, but it's going to sit poorly for me.

Now, do I think that WotC is a bunch of hacks for this -- that they pour out slop? Nope. This is, frankly, a pretty easy oversight to make -- you start with a premise and work out a cool adventure and polish but during that process the needs of later parts require a change to the starting premise but it's kinda small so you don't go back and revisit and rebalance the premise and you end up with this. It's something that can be worked through pretty easily, though. The easiest solution just shortening the winter from over 2 years to something like a cool summer the year before and now, a few months into winter, the season's not changing but getting worse. THAT's the point you start to worry and makes for a better crisis footing to attract the heroes needed to solve it. Two years of winter but now it's a problem? That's not great. But it isn't sufficiently to tar WotC with the useless hack brush -- adventure writing is hard, and there are deadlines, and the vast majority of the material is good. I cracked SKT like an egg and scrambled the pieces because the throughline WotC had didn't work for me, but the pieces were fantastic. I don't fault WotC for this -- my needs for story are mine and I don't expect WotC to be able to write my stories for me all the time. Rime also has good bones, but I'll be re-piecing them because I'm not terrible fond of some of their choices. Again, not WotC being hacks, but me being me.

You do understand that it isn’t completely dark right? There just isn’t direct sunlight.

You do see that it isn’t a hard line cutoff between Fine and Apocalypse... things are getting steadily worse as stores run low, livestock is slain for food and plants and game die.

It feels like you’ve reached a conclusion and now can’t see the wood for the dying trees.

 

[Shardstone]

The comment is aimed at me, who is a middle aged gamer. I get jaded.
I find that playing reminds me, the point of the game is fun with my friends.
Anything else, grand themes, an Oscar worthy RP portrayal is bonus points.


Aesthetics are subjective. If the themes of a module turn you off, cool.
If the structure of a module turns you off..also cool.

Yet, to others what turns You off, makes no difference whatsoever.

I like to tinker, so adjusting things is part of the fun.

You might feel differently. I don't share your feelings. I respect your right to have your viewpoint, while at the same time feeling the opposite.
I don't share your feelings. You don't share mine.

Essentially, it reads like you are stating that the failure on my part to be swayed by the arguments proffered on why Rime is so evidently terrible, means I'm being dishonest ?

The arguments made were not convincing, to me.
I made counter arguments.
Are you claiming that not being swayed is evidence of malfeasance?

Wow.

You argue in bad faith again! Is this intentional, or are you just not aware of it?

You start this off by saying that what turns me off makes no difference whatsoever. So you're already starting this post by saying that my opinion and my tastes and what I think is quality doesn't matter. Why even continue the conversation past this point?

THen you say you don't share my feelings, but I haven't went in depth this thread with my feelings. And you never responded to a post I made about my feelings either. But overall, you say you respect my right to a viewpoint, but you don't, because you just said that my viewpoint doesn't matter whatsoever!

Then you try and say that you not swaying me is malfeasance. Huh? What? I didn't say that. You just disrespected people in this thread TWICE, and this time in the very same post!

I'm not going to respond to you again. You are incredibly rude and incredibly disrespectful and very clearly have no intentions of either changing your mind, your ways, or actually engaging with the topics at hand.

 

[MarkB]

I did. The winter has lasted two years, during which time everything got along okay enough to survive 2 years of winter and darkness. It's now that things are threatened. What changed?

Things haven't been going okay, though. Things got desperate enough after the first year that these townsfolk have had to resort to literal human sacrifices, so great is their desperation - and they've been going progressively downhill from then onwards.

There's no specific 'doom clock' that starts ticking the moment the PCs turn up, but things are very bad and getting worse. People have died, people are dying, people will start dying more quickly.

 

[Shardstone]

I don’t think is a fair response. The points have been discussed. There are two main points raised:

• Lack of sustained sunlight
• Low temperatures

Both of which would result in massive ecological collapse.

The responses I’ve seen include:

• It’s a magical world with magical animals and plants.
• The ecology of a fantasy world can be better adapted to extremes.
• Druids can help keep ecology alive more than we could expect.
• Priests would be expected to support their communities with magic where possible
• Winter stores would exist that would allow people and livestock to survive albeit weakened and in a depleted state.
• Icy temperatures would allow food to be preserved far longer than would be expected normally.
• Hunting and fishing still exist.
• The winter has not necessarily always been this bad, it could easily have progressed over time.
• It isn’t pitch black (the sun just hasn’t risen over the horizon so there absolutely is daylight every day, just not very much and not for long.
• Temperatures are average in the wilderness not in protected buildings, carefully designed settlements, crags, ravines, pine forests, glacier lees.
• Finally the most important argument to my mind. Things are really really bad here, sacrifice to evil gods, cannibalism, mass starvation and horror are not measures of a society thriving. People are suffering from the issues and are on their last legs. They are doomed if the heroes don’t act. Don’t worry about calculating precisely when this should have happened. It happens when the PCs arrive.
• Finally if you really really can’t accept these points. Simply change the phrase ‘two years’ to ‘six months’ and then you get the real world accuracy you crave.

None of these solutions are difficult, none are outside of common sense. However there are people who claim these need handing to them on a dinner plate. It also seems those complaining most are those who purportedly craft their own stories and adventures so why do they need the help?

Those are great solutions, but why do we need to make a forum thread about them? Why couldn't WotC have thought about this and put it into the book? Its $50! Is me asking for some higher stakes, or some more explanation to the problems at hand, really too much?

 

[TheSword]

Those are great solutions, but why do we need to make a forum thread about them? Why couldn't WotC have thought about this and put it into the book? Its $50! Is me asking for some higher stakes, or some more explanation to the problems at hand, really too much?

Because most people don't care. I don’t want or need WOC to waste page count on common sense stuff. Particularly things that will vary depending on how historically accurate the DM wants to be.

Those that can’t come up with this stuff don’t care about it. Those that do care can come up with it.

The very fact that you are ‘discerning’ enough to want this explained means you can read a thread for twenty minutes which explains it.

In other words, you know you’re capable of coming up with this stuff so why are you complaining?

Forum Poster: Why does WOC not use accurate descriptions of medieval weapons. It’s disgusting, WOC are trash.

Me: How do you know know they aren’t accurate

Forum Poster: Because I’m an expert/aficionado in medieval weaponry and these things matter to me.

Me: Oh right, so if you’re an expert why don’t you just fix the descriptions.

Forum Poster: Er, aw, erm... because I shouldn’t have to!