D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

The faiths of faerun largely spend their time jostling with other faiths with no one church getting the upper hand.

Followers of Tempus aren't going to see eye to eye with the clergy of Chauntea or Waukeen for example.

Its rare to see one particular faith holding sway over town, let alone over an entire nation.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
It's a bit silly even by FR standards. It's a cold day in Siberia for two years straight with twilight at best.

Even in cold places such as Siberia, Greenland, Northern Norway you get a brief summer and the settlements are coastal.

Humans might be able to survive a few months on stored food but you're gonna get sick.

It's worse than Siberia, Nuclear Winter and probably the dino killing asteroid.

If I run it I'll probably reduce it to 3-6 months and they're in their last legs.
 

Hussar

Legend
See, the funny thing is, you can survive a LONG time on very little food. Sure, it's going to suck. And suck very bad. But, you can survive months, even years, on starvation level rations. And, as a plus, you food won't spoil in that kind of cold. It's not like you have to worry about the food rotting - it's frozen solid.

And, also, while you might get -45 (or whatever) in the open, you would rarely get that kind of temperature inside of large forests, underground, and in lots of other places. It takes a long time to kill a forest. And, in the 10 Towns region, anywhere that isn't a farm is forest.

Are things dire? Of course. But, as this thread has shown, there are all sorts of ways, both mundane and magical that you can justify two years of winter.

Think of seiges where you had entire settlements cut off from any outside resupply for years. It's going to suck, yuppers, but ,it's not really all that far fetched.
 

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
It really does seem to be very much a case of folks really, really needing to RTFM. Going by third hand commentary, built on suppositions that don't actually appear in the text is a quick way to dive down an endless rabbit hole.

Has anyone actually CHECKED the module to see if the answers are there?
I’ve read it. They’re not.

The really egregious thing, btw, isn’t “two years of winter.” It’s two years where the only sunlight is 4 hours of twilight per day, and then 20 hours of night.

After 2 years of that little light, there would be very few living creatures of any kind still alive in the region.

Again, it’s an easy fix and in no way does it make the adventure unplayable or anything. But it does come off like the designers didn’t devote 5 minutes of thought or research into the ecological impacts of the premise as written.
 

Coroc

Hero
haven't read it but from the forums so far:
Either you go with a solution akin to OP s suggestion or

you run it a bit different, which is how i would eventually do it:

Take the given preconditions and depopulate the area drastically, have the party meet the last survivors in half empty towns, no resources left, except maybe the bee and mead, which you for once can handwave with it's magic.
Certainly no armada of priests and druids feeding the population, that one is out right stupid, aka the energy comes from the wall socket thinking.
 

akr71

Hero
I would have thought something more along the lines of a subarctic climate, predominantly taiga (with the trees growing sparse to nonexistent away from the lakes) and tundra, but maybe they just mangled the term "arctic climate". Looking for a roughly comparable real-world equivalent in terms of climate and biome, I propose Happy Valley-Goose Bay in Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada rather than Greenland, however (the choice absolutely had nothing to do with it having an awesome name).

In comparison to the climate data we were given in The North, here's how Happy Valley-Goose Bay shapes up: Summers have an average high/low of 67℉ (19.4℃)/47.2℉ (8.4℃), with a record high/low of 100.0℉ (37.8℃)/24.4℉ (-4.2℃). Winters have an average high/low of 13.4℉ (-10.3℃)/-4.3℉ (-20.2℃), with a record high/low of 52.1℉ (11.2℃)/-37℉ (-38.3℃).
The day I moved to Goose Bay (July 1981) it was the hot spot in Canada - it had the highest temperature across the nation that day. Things can get pretty warm when the sun beats down from 4am to 11pm. However, there was snow in the forests until at least May and we expected the first snowfall sometime late September. You planned your Halloween costume around winter clothes, because there would definitely be snow that stuck by then.

I lived 3 blocks from school and in the winter we were bused. As a kid I thought it was because of the cold - it was to a point, but looking back I realize it was also to keep kids off the streets. There were no sidewalks and the snowbanks along the road were so high that there is no way that cars would be able to see kids on the street as they approached intersections.

-30C/-22F air temps were rather common, wind chill of -80C/-112F was not unheard of. Yes, exposed skin can freeze quickly. The key word is exposed. Dress for the weather, in layers.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It really does seem to be very much a case of folks really, really needing to RTFM. Going by third hand commentary, built on suppositions that don't actually appear in the text is a quick way to dive down an endless rabbit hole.

Has anyone actually CHECKED the module to see if the answers are there?

Considering that we have had multiple posters quote from the text, I would have to assume that if the answers were in the text, someone would have quoted them a while back.

And I want to take this moment to clarify, not all of us who are calling this out are saying it in a way to negatively reflect on WoTC. I see no reason to rake them over the coals, as I said in one of my previous posts, this happens all the time in Fiction. There are entire communities dedicated to rooting around in these gaps.

Heck, just off the top of my head, I remember watching a video about how the Original Scooby-Doo TV show must take place in an economic wasteland, because not only is most every location abandoned and without people, even those that logically would have crowds like Museums, Theaters, and Bases, but many of the criminals in the show are highly educated genuises with incredible skills, who have built or invented some impressive things. There is a man who is going bankrupt in a run-down carnival, who invented a fully (sort of) functioning robot. Complete with a limited AI. How is that guy in that situation?

Do these plot holes make the Writers of Scooby-Doo terrible? No. Not even close. But, there is no denying it is a bit of a gap in the world they built.



See, the funny thing is, you can survive a LONG time on very little food. Sure, it's going to suck. And suck very bad. But, you can survive months, even years, on starvation level rations. And, as a plus, you food won't spoil in that kind of cold. It's not like you have to worry about the food rotting - it's frozen solid.

And, also, while you might get -45 (or whatever) in the open, you would rarely get that kind of temperature inside of large forests, underground, and in lots of other places. It takes a long time to kill a forest. And, in the 10 Towns region, anywhere that isn't a farm is forest.

Are things dire? Of course. But, as this thread has shown, there are all sorts of ways, both mundane and magical that you can justify two years of winter.

Think of seiges where you had entire settlements cut off from any outside resupply for years. It's going to suck, yuppers, but ,it's not really all that far fetched.

It takes a long time to kill a forest.

Over two years is a long time. That is the point. We know that Decidous trees can survive for about 90 days without sunlight, because they shed their leaves over the winter. They have had to survive for 720 days, which is eight times that length.

Coniferous trees that don't shed their leaves? I thought that would be an easy response, so I googled it. Turns out most Pine trees "needs lots of sunlight to grow" and "most pines are classified as shade intolerant." Meaning that even a few months of those conditions would wipe out a pine forest.


As I said, easy enough to explain how the towns might be coping, would have liked a few words pointing towards long-term storage, but when they started bringing our attention to the plants, they messed up, because there is seems to be no way that two years of twilight and cold wouldn't have already ruined the area without something propping it up. And if it was propping it up for two years, why not four or six?

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Im not talking about the Holy Roman Empire (which was united more by the Catholic Church than national polity - it really took until Bismark to unite Germany), im talking about pre Christian Rome.

Monotheistic Europe was beholden to the Holy See. It differs from Faerun in that there are literally hundreds of Gods, all of which have a foothold and substantial following. This prevents any one church from wielding the same influence as (say) Christianity did in Europe or Islam did in the Arabian peninsula.

In polytheistic cultures (pre christian Europe, India pre Islam Arabia etc) while churches and gods have immense influence, you don't see the same kind of political clout that a monotheistic religion that is adhered to by the majority of the population does have

Look at Baldurs Gate. There are termples to Waukeen, Tymora, Umberlee, Gond and others (including secret temples to Bhaal). Valkur, Helm and other gods also have a presence, and thsts before you count the non human Gods (Corellion, Moradin etc) who also have a presence.

The city is governed by wealthy trading families and a mercenary company.

Contrast this with the Zentarim who (leaving aside the Cyric/ Bane schism) are largely united under the latter, with the Church of Bane calling the shots, and all but outlawing the worship of other Gods.

Theyre largely the outlier though. In very few places in Faerun has one diety and its faith come to a position of dominance over society. The polytheistic nature of Fareun religion keeps that from happening.

Why do are you insisting that having a polytheistic setting means that there can be no Theocracy? Just because their are temples to Waukeen , Tymora, Umberlee and Gond doesn't mean anything. You could have a Republic, ruled by representatives of the churches of Waukeen , Tymora, Umberlee and Gond.

A Theocratic Republic, like I said.

Also, you mention India, but you are missing that I already addressed the very point you seem to be making. Because, starting from your premise that the world is being held together by the churches, the things in India that prevented the Brahmans from ruling are non-existent.

I'll only briefly address it, but the Caste system played a big role. The system was set up with the Brahman's acting as spiritual and religious figures, but it has no Caste for a ruling class. Instead, the Kshatriya's took over that role. Why? Because they were the warrior caste. They had the armies.

But remember, I covered this. In Faerun, not only are your armies dependent on the Churches to keep them alive, but the Churches can have their own armies. And, in fact, the churches have a really good sales pitch. Th Noble might come up and offer some money. The Church will come up, offer you money, and the blessings of their god, and healing, and point out that since this Noble isn't working for the Church, his armies are cut off from the healing the church provides. Bonus points if the Cleric happens to be from a church of one of the War Gods like Tempus or Torm. Because "The God of War wants to command you in war" is a really really good selling point.


And, you keep to forget that Noble Families and Merchants are also presented as numerous and competing. Baldur's Gate may have... you listed eight churches, I'll round up to ten. However, when I checked the wiki for Noble Families I found THIRTY of them. I'll just pop a link instead of listing them: Nobility of Baldur's Gate

So... we can have thirty competing noble families, and that is not an issue. But, having ten competing churches means that they could never rise to power, despite (from your own original explanation) being the sole reason there is enough food and enough soldiers to continue weathering catastrophe after catastrophe?

That doesn't make sense.


The faiths of faerun largely spend their time jostling with other faiths with no one church getting the upper hand.

Followers of Tempus aren't going to see eye to eye with the clergy of Chauntea or Waukeen for example.

Its rare to see one particular faith holding sway over town, let alone over an entire nation.

Theocractic Republic.

Theocracy does not mean that 1 church rules the entire land. It could, with lesser churches underneath it. It simply means the religious leaders are also the political leaders. You don't need to have the upper hand over your peers, for you and your peers to be running the country.
 

Hussar

Legend
haven't read it but from the forums so far:
Either you go with a solution akin to OP s suggestion or

you run it a bit different, which is how i would eventually do it:

Take the given preconditions and depopulate the area drastically, have the party meet the last survivors in half empty towns, no resources left, except maybe the bee and mead, which you for once can handwave with it's magic.
Certainly no armada of priests and druids feeding the population, that one is out right stupid, aka the energy comes from the wall socket thinking.

The tendency to confuse personal taste with quality is nearly universal.

It's not "stupid" to have an armada of priests. If the demographics are correct that were posted above, you could keep a population from starving to death for a LONG time. Remember, you don't need a goodberry every day to not die. A single Goodberry 1/3 days, with potable water, would keep you from starving to death for months or even years. A full day's worth of calories every 3 days? Yeah, that's going to suck a lot, but, you stay alive a REALLY long time like that. Which effectively means that a single Goodberry spell keeps 30 people from starving indefinitely (presuming it's cast every day).

No one is saying that the people in these towns are happy. They certainly aren't. And the situation is going from bad to worse, so, it's not tenable in the long term. But, two years isn't actually that long. Famines lasting much longer than that have failed to wipe out entire populations. Granted, these famines killed LOTS of people and it would take centuries for the populations to recover, but, again, it's entirely plausible.
 

Considering that we have had multiple posters quote from the text, I would have to assume that if the answers were in the text, someone would have quoted them a while back.

And I want to take this moment to clarify, not all of us who are calling this out are saying it in a way to negatively reflect on WoTC. I see no reason to rake them over the coals, as I said in one of my previous posts, this happens all the time in Fiction. There are entire communities dedicated to rooting around in these gaps.

Heck, just off the top of my head, I remember watching a video about how the Original Scooby-Doo TV show must take place in an economic wasteland, because not only is most every location abandoned and without people, even those that logically would have crowds like Museums, Theaters, and Bases, but many of the criminals in the show are highly educated genuises with incredible skills, who have built or invented some impressive things. There is a man who is going bankrupt in a run-down carnival, who invented a fully (sort of) functioning robot. Complete with a limited AI. How is that guy in that situation?

Do these plot holes make the Writers of Scooby-Doo terrible? No. Not even close. But, there is no denying it is a bit of a gap in the world they built.





It takes a long time to kill a forest.

Over two years is a long time. That is the point. We know that Decidous trees can survive for about 90 days without sunlight, because they shed their leaves over the winter. They have had to survive for 720 days, which is eight times that length.

Coniferous trees that don't shed their leaves? I thought that would be an easy response, so I googled it. Turns out most Pine trees "needs lots of sunlight to grow" and "most pines are classified as shade intolerant." Meaning that even a few months of those conditions would wipe out a pine forest.


As I said, easy enough to explain how the towns might be coping, would have liked a few words pointing towards long-term storage, but when they started bringing our attention to the plants, they messed up, because there is seems to be no way that two years of twilight and cold wouldn't have already ruined the area without something propping it up. And if it was propping it up for two years, why not four or six?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why do are you insisting that having a polytheistic setting means that there can be no Theocracy? Just because their are temples to Waukeen , Tymora, Umberlee and Gond doesn't mean anything. You could have a Republic, ruled by representatives of the churches of Waukeen , Tymora, Umberlee and Gond.

A Theocratic Republic, like I said.

Also, you mention India, but you are missing that I already addressed the very point you seem to be making. Because, starting from your premise that the world is being held together by the churches, the things in India that prevented the Brahmans from ruling are non-existent.

I'll only briefly address it, but the Caste system played a big role. The system was set up with the Brahman's acting as spiritual and religious figures, but it has no Caste for a ruling class. Instead, the Kshatriya's took over that role. Why? Because they were the warrior caste. They had the armies.

But remember, I covered this. In Faerun, not only are your armies dependent on the Churches to keep them alive, but the Churches can have their own armies. And, in fact, the churches have a really good sales pitch. Th Noble might come up and offer some money. The Church will come up, offer you money, and the blessings of their god, and healing, and point out that since this Noble isn't working for the Church, his armies are cut off from the healing the church provides. Bonus points if the Cleric happens to be from a church of one of the War Gods like Tempus or Torm. Because "The God of War wants to command you in war" is a really really good selling point.


And, you keep to forget that Noble Families and Merchants are also presented as numerous and competing. Baldur's Gate may have... you listed eight churches, I'll round up to ten. However, when I checked the wiki for Noble Families I found THIRTY of them. I'll just pop a link instead of listing them: Nobility of Baldur's Gate

So... we can have thirty competing noble families, and that is not an issue. But, having ten competing churches means that they could never rise to power, despite (from your own original explanation) being the sole reason there is enough food and enough soldiers to continue weathering catastrophe after catastrophe?

That doesn't make sense.




Theocractic Republic.

Theocracy does not mean that 1 church rules the entire land. It could, with lesser churches underneath it. It simply means the religious leaders are also the political leaders. You don't need to have the upper hand over your peers, for you and your peers to be running the country.
This is getting silly.
 

The problem though, to take your example as a basis, is that the adventure is set with stakes that involve the town collapsing, because of the water drainage.


Sure, if this was an adventure about finding the lost tower of some mage, and the two year long winter was a flavor text aside about the region, then not offering a solution to how they are surviving that crisis is perfectly understandable. But the adventure is about this problem, it is about the water drainage from your example, so lacking details on how the problem has been addressed to date is a fairly major oversight.

I mean, reading the flavor text, if it read "This prolonged winter, which has gone on for more than two years, threatens to doom the flickering lights of civilization known as Ten-Towns as their stores of reserves run dry." Then I would say they gave us an answer. The towns had emergency supplies that have lasted these two years. Implausible? Maybe. But they pointed me in the right direction for why things are desperate now.

But, by adding the bit about "the indigenous flora and fauna that need sunlight and the change of seasons to survive." it immediately brings to question what has been happening up until now. Most plants do not have a three year life cycle, where they need the changing of the seasons, but can go two years without such a change. I mean, plants around here will start dying off if you don't water them for a week or two, let alone multiple months, let alone two years. Many animals struggle to find food in the winter, using the fall to build up fat reserves so they can get through the lean times.

This is something the adventure seems to call specific attention to... but then does not follow through about how things have not already collapsed. And, if you were right, and this was just an aside that had little to do with the plot of the adventure, then it would be a far less perplexing event that they did not think this through. But this is the plot of the adventure. This is the main scenario, not a side note.
Ohhh man, you just challenged moderation! Nice knowing you, my friend.
 

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