D&D 5E Running Rime of the Frost Maiden

[Burnside]

But, that's just it -- they don't even have to drop everything. Let's say they're running through Chap 1. They have the two starting quests and the quest for the town their in. That's 2nd level and a good bit towards 3rd. Unless they're running around Ten Towns collecting lots of town quests, when they hit third they'll probably only have one Chap 1 quest on the docket, possibly two, which aren't enough for reaching 4th level. At that point, they are not abandoning anything at all to go after the rumor -- it's teed up and next on the docket!

Regarding the two "starting quests" - and admittedly the designers could have made this considerably clearer - they are not meant to be completed first, only GIVEN first.

The main purpose of the starting quests is to prompt the adventurers to move from town to town, accruing and completing other Tier 1 quests. In fact, only when the DM decides that it's about time to move on from town-hopping and low-level questing should the starter quest (or quests - honestly there is no reason not to give them both although the book says one or the other) meet their resolution.

In other words, the people complaining that the serial killer is too tough for a level one party are correct, but they shouldn't be facing him at level one. In fact, the adventurers should not find him until they are close to the end of Chapter 1. So adventurers will likely reach level 3 or 4 en route to completing their starting quest(s).

So the idea is yes, we've heard there might be a crashed spaceship or whatever out there, but dammit Jim we've still got a serial killer on the loose right here in River City so those aliens are just gonna need to cool their jets for a bit.

The people complaining that the serial killer quest is lame because there is no investigation involved...have a point.

 

[Shardstone]

Regarding the two "starting quests" - and admittedly the designers could have made this considerably clearer - they are not meant to be completed first, only GIVEN first.

The main purpose of the starting quests to prompt the adventurers to move from town to town, accruing and completing other Tier 1 quests. In fact, only when the DM decides that it's about time to move on from town-hopping and low-level questing should the starter quest (or quests - honestly there is no reason not to give them both although the book says one or the other) meet their resolution.

In other words, the people complaining that the serial killer is too tough for a level one party are correct - in fact, the adventurers should not find him until they are close to the end of Chapter 1. So adventurers will likely reach level 3 or 4 en route to completing their starting quest(s).

The fact that you admit that this could have been made considerably clearer proves that this module can be better, which is kind of the whole conceit of this argument - that Rime of the Frostmaiden could have been BETTER.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Where does RotFM state that a GM needs to be experienced before they run the adventure? Show me the exact text where it says this please.

Considering that products/adventures for new/inexperienced DMs are explicitly titled as such: "Starter's Set" "Essentials Kit", etc, it can be inferred that products of this heft and length do assume the DM should be experienced. If this adventure wasn't intended primarily for experienced/knowledgeable DMs, then it would have been titled in a way that lets inexperienced DMs know they can run it as well, just like the other products that are explicitly titled that way.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Considering that products/adventures for new/inexperienced DMs are explicitly titled as such: "Starter's Set" "Essentials Kit", etc, it can be inferred that products of this heft and length do assume the DM should be experienced. If this adventure wasn't intended primarily for experienced/knowledgeable DMs, then it would have been titled in a way that lets inexperienced DMs know they can run it as well, just like the other products that are explicitly titled that way.

I think that offering a complete adventure path, but only assuming your customers understand that it's 1) not actually complete, but assembly and additional materials needed and b) not for beginners, is a poor way to treat your customers and can lead to disappointed purchasers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 1 and b above, but it's very much not clearly advertised. Unless I've learned my lesson already (which might take multiple product purchases) or I've been forewarned by other hobbyists, there's absolutely nothing in the product description that tells you this.

As someone who has had a lot of experience dealing with customers dissatisfied with their hobby purchase because they didn't read or care about the clear labels on the package that say it's a kit you have to build, not even putting on a label leaves me baffled as to why this is an accepted state of affairs. "Because it's been that way," is an even poorer excuse for continuing to do so.

 

[Shardstone]

Considering that products/adventures for new/inexperienced DMs are explicitly titled as such: "Starter's Set" "Essentials Kit", etc, it can be inferred that products of this heft and length do assume the DM should be experienced. If this adventure wasn't intended primarily for experienced/knowledgeable DMs, then it would have been titled in a way that lets inexperienced DMs know they can run it as well, just like the other products that are explicitly titled that way.

Week argument, WotC's marketing in all channels never once mentions that any adventure is explicitly not beginner-friendly, and in fact just tells you to buy this new adventure without regards to your DM experience. Any further argument that doesn't expressly show or actually lead to this logical influence should stop being posted; let's not make things up.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Regarding the two "starting quests" - and admittedly the designers could have made this considerably clearer - they are not meant to be completed first, only GIVEN first.

The main purpose of the starting quests is to prompt the adventurers to move from town to town, accruing and completing other Tier 1 quests. In fact, only when the DM decides that it's about time to move on from town-hopping and low-level questing should the starter quest (or quests - honestly there is no reason not to give them both although the book says one or the other) meet their resolution.

In other words, the people complaining that the serial killer is too tough for a level one party are correct, but they shouldn't be facing him at level one. In fact, the adventurers should not find him until they are close to the end of Chapter 1. So adventurers will likely reach level 3 or 4 en route to completing their starting quest(s).

The people complaining that the serial killer quest is lame because there is no investigation involved...have a point.

Right, but the progression through those quests means that if you're giving out the Chap 2 rumors at level 3, the party mostly likely only has a one or two of those quests still in the queue. That you get them isn't in question, but that you really only have a few at a time, so the fact that you need to complete, what, 4 more to get from level 3 to 4 means that, on average, unless you're holding the rumors till the end of level 3 there's lots of room to have that rumor be the next up in the queue before you get to 4th level (much less 7th). This means that, functionally, you're not providing these rumors at level 3, but maybe at the very tail end of 3, and then you're being careful as to which you're handing out because some are geared for 7th level characters. But, the text just says that you do Chap 2 starting a 4th (a good summation, and clear) and then also that 3rd level players are hearing rumors (ie, getting plot hooks) of these quests. This is poor advice, and easily corrected, and there's more than enough Ten Town adventures to actually wait until 4th to provide the new plot hooks and not have it seem jarring at all.

 

[Burnside]

Right, but the progression through those quests means that if you're giving out the Chap 2 rumors at level 3, the party mostly likely only has a one or two of those quests still in the queue. That you get them isn't in question, but that you really only have a few at a time, so the fact that you need to complete, what, 4 more to get from level 3 to 4 means that, on average, unless you're holding the rumors till the end of level 3 there's lots of room to have that rumor be the next up in the queue before you get to 4th level (much less 7th). This means that, functionally, you're not providing these rumors at level 3, but maybe at the very tail end of 3, and then you're being careful as to which you're handing out because some are geared for 7th level characters. But, the text just says that you do Chap 2 starting a 4th (a good summation, and clear) and then also that 3rd level players are hearing rumors (ie, getting plot hooks) of these quests. This is poor advice, and easily corrected, and there's more than enough Ten Town adventures to actually wait until 4th to provide the new plot hooks and not have it seem jarring at all.

Sure. The suggestion that players hear about the Chapter 2 quests when they're level 3 is needlessly messy and should have been cut in editing, especially because there's a chance they may already feel overwhelmed by the amount of quests on offer in Chapter 1.

But honestly, many of the Chapter 2 quests are survivable for a level 3 party anyway, so it's not a huge issue.

 

[Burnside]

The fact that you admit that this could have been made considerably clearer proves that this module can be better, which is kind of the whole conceit of this argument - that Rime of the Frostmaiden could have been BETTER.

I'm not claiming otherwise.

There are very valid criticisms to be a made about this adventure, and some people are twisting themselves into knots trying to defend it against any and every criticism (which people do with every WotC adventure).

There are also some people being quite over the top in decrying and magnifying the adventure's faults (which people also do with every WotC adventure).

In my opinion, it's a very good adventure with some clear problems, and you can look silly both by claiming that those problems aren't there, and also by claiming it's terrible or unplayable.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Week argument, WotC's marketing in all channels never once mentions that any adventure is explicitly not beginner-friendly, and in fact just tells you to buy this new adventure without regards to your DM experience. Any further argument that doesn't expressly show or actually lead to this logical influence should stop being posted; let's not make things up.

No, not a week (sic) argument. It's a valid argument, and one used for literally everything else in the world. Any product marketed to the overall demographic is going to assume competency with that system. Anything meant for beginners will explicitly say it's for beginners. And that is a good thing. Most gamers are not beginners, so using up valuable text space for every product to hand walk beginners through the adventure that don't apply to most of the people running it would be a bad thing. Wasted space. Wasted effort. Wasted cost.

Does every cookbook/coding/handyperson manual need to explicitly say it's not for beginners if it's not, or can you assume that since there are books that say "for beginners", we can assume that a book not saying that is in fact not for beginners, but for everyone else?

Does every tool need to explicitly say it's not for beginners if it's not, or can you assume that since there are tools that say "for beginners", we can assume that a tool not saying that is in fact not for beginners, but for everyone else and assumes you should have a level of competency with it?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Right, but the progression through those quests means that if you're giving out the Chap 2 rumors at level 3, the party mostly likely only has a one or two of those quests still in the queue. That you get them isn't in question, but that you really only have a few at a time, so the fact that you need to complete, what, 4 more to get from level 3 to 4 means that, on average, unless you're holding the rumors till the end of level 3 there's lots of room to have that rumor be the next up in the queue before you get to 4th level (much less 7th). This means that, functionally, you're not providing these rumors at level 3, but maybe at the very tail end of 3, and then you're being careful as to which you're handing out because some are geared for 7th level characters. But, the text just says that you do Chap 2 starting a 4th (a good summation, and clear) and then also that 3rd level players are hearing rumors (ie, getting plot hooks) of these quests. This is poor advice, and easily corrected, and there's more than enough Ten Town adventures to actually wait until 4th to provide the new plot hooks and not have it seem jarring at all.

PCs hearing rumors before they are high enough level to address the scenario isn't poor advice. It's reasonable and realistic. Rumors don't care what level the party is. They are information held by NPCs in a living world, regardless of what the PCs are doing. The game assumes some level of competency from the DM, and that DMs know their players and can make adjustments to your table if you feel it's needed.

You're essentially arguing that the adventure is written badly because you as the DM can't manage to adjust the game to your players' preferences if they deviate from the expected norm of play (no adventure EVER has withheld rumors of plot hooks if the party wasn't immediately ready to take on that scenario).