D&D 5E Making sense of D&D's Lore, History and Cosmology

[TheAlkaizer]

I'll add, one of the best sources is actually 1d4chan. It does a very good job of collating various D&D information across editions, so you can compare.

Demons: Tanar'ri - 1d4chan
Devils: Baatezu - 1d4chan
Gods: Gods of Dungeons & Dragons - 1d4chan
Primordials (or Archomentals): Archomental - 1d4chan

To answer your specific questions, divine ranks really just measure how powerful the god is. There is not really a set way for how gods move up and down in rank; they just do. Ao for example is an Overdeity, but has few worshippers, so rank is not technically tied to worship, although the more worshippers a god has is usually a net good for their power.

Primordials are essentially extremely powerful elemental beings. They are probably most comparable to lesser deities in power level.

That's some good stuff, thank you.

As for anyone asking why I'd want to make sense of it all. Fifth Edition doesn't have enough fluff about that stuff to satisfy my curiosity and give me a solid understanding of it all. And if I take it and go back to older editions to complement it, it's pretty confusing. It's hard to pick what you want and what you don't want from content you don't understand at all.

 

[Voadam]

If you do not find enough stuff from the sourcebooks you have, wikis, and such just keep posting more threads like your Dracomicon one asking for specific info, there is usually someone here willing to to point out other resources and to pontificate on the changing lore of Grazz't through editions or most any other D&D topic.

 

[Weiley31]

I use 4E Dawn War, 2E, and 3.0/3.5 books and lore for my 5E Forgotten Realms. And I second 1D4 Chan for dnd info between editions. Thanks to it, I learned Demon Orcs, the Tanarukks have different lore you can choose between the editions.

Likewise, the Merrows of 5E are A LOT cooler than water breather orcs in older editions.

 

[see]

1. The information is split between editions. This include the 4th edition and its different cosmology, so I tend to be selective about that edition. There's some cool stuff in the 2nd edition, but a lot of it is never referred to again in further editions or often contradicts stuff from the 3rd or 5th edition.

The Great Wheel Cosmology comes in, roughly, five separate generations:

1. The first generation, laid out in Dragon Magazine #8 ("Planes: The Concepts of Spatial, Temporal and Physical Relationships in D&D", July 1977), the AD&D Player's Handbook (Appendix IV, 1e, 1978), and Deities & Demigods (Appendix I, 1e, 1980).
2. The second generation, found in the AD&D Manual of the Planes (1987). Mostly a systematization and rationalization of various bits and pieces added to the first generation through adventures and monster entries, its big contradiction is throwing out three of the Paraelemental Planes from Deities & Demigods in favor of new ones. Also used in brief in the pre-Planescape printings of the 2e DMG.
3. The third generation, Planescape (1994). Grabbed and ran with the Blood War concept from the 1991 Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, unified the alternate Material Planes into one single Prime Plane based on Spelljammer (unifying GH, FR, and DL to being on the same plane), made various changes (like to how the Plane of Fire worked) to improve adventuring in the planes.
4. The fourth generation, D&D 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes (2001). Now demoted from the cosmology of everywhere to merely one example cosmology (undoing the Spelljammer/Planescape unification of FR, GH, and DL being on the same plane, since now FR was in its own cosmology), reworked how the Astral worked to match how 3e spells worked, decanonized the Paraelemental and Quasielemental Planes.
5. The fifth generation, D&D 5th Edition (5e Dungeon Master's Guide, 2014). Still an example cosmology. Redefined the Elemental Planes in a way that hybridized the 4e Elemental Chaos, the vast pure elemental expanses of the early AD&D Elemental Planes, the elemental echoes of the Prime seen in BECMI and kinda-sorta in the Planescape/3e Plane of Fire, and the Second/Third Generation Paraelemental Planes.

If you try to integrate between generations, you will absolutely and certainly find contradictions. If you try to bring in stuff from BECMI, the alternate cosmologies in 3rd, and the 4th Edition World Axis, you'll get even more contradictions. Since Forgotten Realms used the first, second, and third generations of the Great Wheel, then its own World Tree (and, technically, simultaneoulsy additional csomologies depending on what part of the Realms you were in), and then the World Axis, and now seems to have defaulted to the fifth generation of the Great Wheel, its cosmological lore is utterly full of contradictions.

Incidentally, the number of godly ranks increased from Demi/Lesser/Greater in 1e to Demi/Lesser/Intermediate/Greater in 2e, and there was never a clear definition of how to progress between the ranks (there was one Dragon article in 1e that was always dubious, there were occasions where gods were declared to have changed rank, and the 3e Deities & Demigods had very fine-grained divine rank mechanics without canonical advancement rules). Primordials were introduced in 4th edition, with some earlier gods retconned into them.

 

[Dire Bare]

Incidentally, the number of godly ranks increased from Demi/Lesser/Greater in 1e to Demi/Lesser/Intermediate/Greater in 2e, and there was never a clear definition of how to progress between the ranks (there was one Dragon article in 1e that was always dubious, there were occasions where gods were declared to have changed rank, and the 3e Deities & Demigods had very fine-grained divine rank mechanics without canonical advancement rules). Primordials were introduced in 4th edition, with some earlier gods retconned into them.

Well, gods don't "advance" like player characters, not usually anyways. How and why they gain or lose power varies by setting.

Except for BECMI D&D, where the "immortals" do advance by experience level! Probably because they ARE player characters! But, different ruleset, different setting than "core" D&D.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

The Great Wheel Cosmology comes in, roughly, five separate generations:

1. The first generation, laid out in Dragon Magazine #8 ("Planes: The Concepts of Spatial, Temporal and Physical Relationships in D&D", July 1977), the AD&D Player's Handbook (Appendix IV, 1e, 1978), and Deities & Demigods (Appendix I, 1e, 1980).
2. The second generation, found in the AD&D Manual of the Planes (1987). Mostly a systematization and rationalization of various bits and pieces added to the first generation through adventures and monster entries, its big contradiction is throwing out three of the Paraelemental Planes from Deities & Demigods in favor of new ones. Also used in brief in the pre-Planescape printings of the 2e DMG.
3. The third generation, Planescape (1994). Grabbed and ran with the Blood War concept from the 1991 Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, unified the alternate Material Planes into one single Prime Plane based on Spelljammer (unifying GH, FR, and DL to being on the same plane), made various changes (like to how the Plane of Fire worked) to improve adventuring in the planes.
4. The fourth generation, D&D 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes (2001). Now demoted from the cosmology of everywhere to merely one example cosmology (undoing the Spelljammer/Planescape unification of FR, GH, and DL being on the same plane, since now FR was in its own cosmology), reworked how the Astral worked to match how 3e spells worked, decanonized the Paraelemental and Quasielemental Planes.
5. The fifth generation, D&D 5th Edition (5e Dungeon Master's Guide, 2014). Still an example cosmology. Redefined the Elemental Planes in a way that hybridized the 4e Elemental Chaos, the vast pure elemental expanses of the early AD&D Elemental Planes, the elemental echoes of the Prime seen in BECMI and kinda-sorta in the Planescape/3e Plane of Fire, and the Second/Third Generation Paraelemental Planes.

If you try to integrate between generations, you will absolutely and certainly find contradictions. If you try to bring in stuff from BECMI, the alternate cosmologies in 3rd, and the 4th Edition World Axis, you'll get even more contradictions. Since Forgotten Realms used the first, second, and third generations of the Great Wheel, then its own World Tree (and, technically, simultaneoulsy additional csomologies depending on what part of the Realms you were in), and then the World Axis, and now seems to have defaulted to the fifth generation of the Great Wheel, its cosmological lore is utterly full of contradictions.

Incidentally, the number of godly ranks increased from Demi/Lesser/Greater in 1e to Demi/Lesser/Intermediate/Greater in 2e, and there was never a clear definition of how to progress between the ranks (there was one Dragon article in 1e that was always dubious, there were occasions where gods were declared to have changed rank, and the 3e Deities & Demigods had very fine-grained divine rank mechanics without canonical advancement rules). Primordials were introduced in 4th edition, with some earlier gods retconned into them.

That's some quality distilled information there my friend. It'll really help me categorize the information in my head. I think what I'll do is focus on the fifth and third generations. The fifth because it's the most recent material and should make sense with everything else included in fifth edition, and to fill the gaps or swap with ideas from the wholeness of third generation.

I'll see how it goes.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Except for BECMI D&D, where the "immortals" do advance by experience level! Probably because they ARE player characters! But, different ruleset, different setting than "core" D&D.

My entry to the game was the RC and this has always been my baseline assumption. Sure, some gods are "born" into it, but that they are mostly ascended into the role.

 

[Coroc]

The Great Wheel Cosmology comes in, roughly, five separate generations:

1. The first generation, laid out in Dragon Magazine #8 ("Planes: The Concepts of Spatial, Temporal and Physical Relationships in D&D", July 1977), the AD&D Player's Handbook (Appendix IV, 1e, 1978), and Deities & Demigods (Appendix I, 1e, 1980).
2. The second generation, found in the AD&D Manual of the Planes (1987). Mostly a systematization and rationalization of various bits and pieces added to the first generation through adventures and monster entries, its big contradiction is throwing out three of the Paraelemental Planes from Deities & Demigods in favor of new ones. Also used in brief in the pre-Planescape printings of the 2e DMG.
3. The third generation, Planescape (1994). Grabbed and ran with the Blood War concept from the 1991 Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, unified the alternate Material Planes into one single Prime Plane based on Spelljammer (unifying GH, FR, and DL to being on the same plane), made various changes (like to how the Plane of Fire worked) to improve adventuring in the planes.
4. The fourth generation, D&D 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes (2001). Now demoted from the cosmology of everywhere to merely one example cosmology (undoing the Spelljammer/Planescape unification of FR, GH, and DL being on the same plane, since now FR was in its own cosmology), reworked how the Astral worked to match how 3e spells worked, decanonized the Paraelemental and Quasielemental Planes.
5. The fifth generation, D&D 5th Edition (5e Dungeon Master's Guide, 2014). Still an example cosmology. Redefined the Elemental Planes in a way that hybridized the 4e Elemental Chaos, the vast pure elemental expanses of the early AD&D Elemental Planes, the elemental echoes of the Prime seen in BECMI and kinda-sorta in the Planescape/3e Plane of Fire, and the Second/Third Generation Paraelemental Planes.

If you try to integrate between generations, you will absolutely and certainly find contradictions. If you try to bring in stuff from BECMI, the alternate cosmologies in 3rd, and the 4th Edition World Axis, you'll get even more contradictions. Since Forgotten Realms used the first, second, and third generations of the Great Wheel, then its own World Tree (and, technically, simultaneoulsy additional csomologies depending on what part of the Realms you were in), and then the World Axis, and now seems to have defaulted to the fifth generation of the Great Wheel, its cosmological lore is utterly full of contradictions.

Incidentally, the number of godly ranks increased from Demi/Lesser/Greater in 1e to Demi/Lesser/Intermediate/Greater in 2e, and there was never a clear definition of how to progress between the ranks (there was one Dragon article in 1e that was always dubious, there were occasions where gods were declared to have changed rank, and the 3e Deities & Demigods had very fine-grained divine rank mechanics without canonical advancement rules). Primordials were introduced in 4th edition, with some earlier gods retconned into them.

please could you elaborate on the topic elemental echoes of the prime a bit?

i never heard of that, is it something like shadowfell and feywild connected closely to the prime, with some weird things going on with prominent landmarks showing up altered depending on which plane you are?

 

[Voadam]

please could you elaborate on the topic elemental echoes of the prime a bit?

i never heard of that, is it something like shadowfell and feywild connected closely to the prime, with some weird things going on with prominent landmarks showing up altered depending on which plane you are?

My understanding is that it is only kinda-sorta an echo. In the Rules Cyclopedia and the preceding CMI part of BECMI the elemental planes were entire universes like a prime but made up of one element and with elemental matches to types of things on the prime, but they were specifically not matches to specific things on the prime like cities or even moons. Only the base world by default even has connections to all four elemental planes.

Rules Cyclopedia Page 264:

Each elemental plane is a universe much like the Prime Plane, but all the material is a single element. The elemental matter collects in clumps (planets, moons, etc.); it can exist in solid, liquid, or gaseous form.
For instance, in the elemental plane of Water, the atmosphere is an unbreatheably thick fog, the seas are made of water, and all land, solid objects, and even solid creatures are made of ice—ice which may be so hard and imperishable that it resembles crystal and does not melt in warm temperatures.

and

When a planet exists on an elemental plane in roughly the same "position" as a planet on the Prime Plane, natural vortexes and wormholes appear, connecting the planets on each plane. Thus, for the "normal" D&D® world, there are four other planets in similar positions, one on each of the elemental planes. Other planets in the Prime universe might not have corresponding elemental planets; another world might thus be missing one or more elements.
Moons, comets, and other large moving bodies on the Prime Plane rarely have any elemental connections. They are sometimes created by temporary wormholes, which break when the corresponding body on the elemental plane moves out of position. In a similar manner, a vortex may suddenly appear on a moving body, as a corresponding moon "nears it" on the elemental plane. For example, an ocean could suddenly appear on a moon near the characters' world!

and

Components of the Elemental Planes Table
Type of Component
Atmosphere
Liquids
Solids

Air
Air
Invisible
Airy Liquid
Solid Clouds

Earth
Dust or Soil
Mud, Oil or
Lava
Earth or Stone

Fire
Plasma
Liquified
Fire or Lava
Solidified Fire

Water
Fog, Airy Water
Normal
Water
Crystalline Ice