D&D 5E Are proficiency swaps too strong for some races?

[ScuroNotte]

You can swap out armor or a weapon for a weapon or tool. In the example, an elf can swap a long sword for a tool as per page 8. So if a player playing an Elf martial character who already gains martial weapons through the class, can swap the 4 weapons (longsword, shortsword, shortbow, longbow) for 4 tools. Or a martial Mountain Dwarf character can exchange 4 weapons and 2 armor proficiencies for 6 tools.
Or am I over reacting.

 

[Remathilis]

I think really the fix is just to not let anyone swap away weapon proficiencies because of overlap with class proficiencies, or to allow only a single weapon-for weapon/tool swap.

Would you assume the same for the following situations.

A goliath taking the outlander background has proficiency in Athletics twice. Should he not be allowed to pick a new skill to replace the duplicate choice?

A rogue with the entertainer background takes the assassin subclass at 3rd level and gains disguise kit proficiency again. Should she not be allowed to pick a different tool to replace the duplicate proficiency?

If he answer is yes to both of these, why is that different that an elf getting longsword proficiency twice being allowed to pick a different proficiency?

 

[Kobold Stew]

These are not parallel with each other, so -- since you ask:

1. your goliath example. Of course he should, because the PHB says he can (p. 125).
2. your rogue example. Of course not, any more than someone with the light cantrip multiclassing into cleric shouldn't get to choose a different cantrip if they happen to choose the Light Domain.

Both of those (and my cantrip example) are RAW as far as I know, though Tahsa changes the default

In the case we're talking about (elf weapons and dwarf weapons and armor), it changes saying something about the culture (they're good with axes or longbows) to something about power (the already comparatively strong races deserve to be more overpowered and have greater flexibility than others).

Now of course, DMs can make any decisions at their tables, and everyone finds fun in different ways. For me, making strategic choices (within game-imposed and player-selected constraints) as characters are created and advance) is part of that fun.

 

[Zardnaar]

Variant human, half elf, yuan-ti, probably Satyr, maybe elf and dwarf?

Pretty much this except only mountain Dwarf.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Would you assume the same for the following situations.

A goliath taking the outlander background has proficiency in Athletics twice. Should he not be allowed to pick a new skill to replace the duplicate choice?

A rogue with the entertainer background takes the assassin subclass at 3rd level and gains disguise kit proficiency again. Should she not be allowed to pick a different tool to replace the duplicate proficiency?

If he answer is yes to both of these, why is that different that an elf getting longsword proficiency twice being allowed to pick a different proficiency?

These are not parallel with each other, so -- since you ask:

1. your goliath example. Of course he should, because the PHB says he can (p. 125).
2. your rogue example. Of course not, any more than someone with the light cantrip multiclassing into cleric shouldn't get to choose a different cantrip if they happen to choose the Light Domain.

2. if the rogue was planning ahead to take assassin at 3rd level, they could have taken a different tool proficiency from the start. Backgrounds are customizable out of the gate... PHB p125 again.

 

[Charlaquin]

Pretty much this except only mountain Dwarf.

I can imagine some builds that might go for Hill Darf over Mountain, but yeah, they’re probably A-tier to Mountain Dwarf’s S.

 

[Zardnaar]

I can imagine some builds that might go for Hill Darf over Mountain, but yeah, they’re probably A-tier to Mountain Dwarf’s S.

Yeah. Wood Elves probably S tier not sure on high elf and Drow as they have things kinda tied to int/cha. No lower than A though.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Is the solution to crappy races (and classes) to give them more free stuff, or to take stuff away from better races (classes)?

The former. People flip out if you take away their anything. See: the last 20 years of game design.

A kludgy fix to this kludgy problem could be to make some over-the-top feats that can only be taken by specific races. With, say, half a dozen "feat-and-a-half" feats, it'd be hard to argue that a Dragonborn is bad, they just have to grow into their power.

Actually, that'd be pretty cool: make six feats, one for each ability score. You get +1 to that score, and a strong and thematically appropriate benefit associated with that ability score. Spitballing concepts rather than hard rules, using Dragonborn as an example:

• Dragonborn Fury: +1 Str, attack bonus when below half health, use breath weapon on a melee weapon for temp. [element] damage bonus.
• Dragonborn Toughness: +1 Con, reroll 1s on Hit Die rolls to regain HP, choose a second breath element, expend breath weapon to turn one of your resistances into immunity for a while.
• Dragonborn Guile: +1 Dex, proficiency in one of [dex skill list] (Expertise if you already have prof), expend breath weapon to create a concealing cloud for PB rounds,
• Dragonborn Memory: +1 Int, proficiency in one of [int skill list], reroll knowledge checks [PB] times per long rest (only one reroll per check),
• Dragonborn Senses: +1 Wisdom, prof in Perception (Expertise if you already have prof), Darkvision, advantage on checks to detect hidden treasure.
• Dragonborn Presence: +1 Cha, prof in one of [cha skill list]; expend breath to gain a supernatural aura of fear/awe (your choice) against all non-dragonborn humanoids, giving you advantage on all Charisma ability checks against them and imposing disadvantage on anyone trying to discern your true motives, alignment, etc. or oppose your threats/persuasion.

All "expend breath to X" benefits would last for something like Proficiency Bonus rounds or something like that. A small but meaningful amount of time--growing to be about a whole combat by mid levels.

 

[aco175]

The former. People flip out if you take away their anything. See: the last 20 years of game design.

Thank you. Eventually the problem will become that dragonborn no longer are the 'weakest' and now people want to bump someone else. The power creep is always there with bumping bad feats and classes that need more power. Although there is another thread here about nerfing spell versatility in the new Tasha's book. Maybe change the word nerfing to something less combative.

 

[tetrasodium]

The former. People flip out if you take away their anything. See: the last 20 years of game design.

A kludgy fix to this kludgy problem could be to make some over-the-top feats that can only be taken by specific races. With, say, half a dozen "feat-and-a-half" feats, it'd be hard to argue that a Dragonborn is bad, they just have to grow into their power.

Actually, that'd be pretty cool: make six feats, one for each ability score. You get +1 to that score, and a strong and thematically appropriate benefit associated with that ability score. Spitballing concepts rather than hard rules, using Dragonborn as an example:

• Dragonborn Fury: +1 Str, attack bonus when below half health, use breath weapon on a melee weapon for temp. [element] damage bonus.
• Dragonborn Toughness: +1 Con, reroll 1s on Hit Die rolls to regain HP, choose a second breath element, expend breath weapon to turn one of your resistances into immunity for a while.
• Dragonborn Guile: +1 Dex, proficiency in one of [dex skill list] (Expertise if you already have prof), expend breath weapon to create a concealing cloud for PB rounds,
• Dragonborn Memory: +1 Int, proficiency in one of [int skill list], reroll knowledge checks [PB] times per long rest (only one reroll per check),
• Dragonborn Senses: +1 Wisdom, prof in Perception (Expertise if you already have prof), Darkvision, advantage on checks to detect hidden treasure.
• Dragonborn Presence: +1 Cha, prof in one of [cha skill list]; expend breath to gain a supernatural aura of fear/awe (your choice) against all non-dragonborn humanoids, giving you advantage on all Charisma ability checks against them and imposing disadvantage on anyone trying to discern your true motives, alignment, etc. or oppose your threats/persuasion.

All "expend breath to X" benefits would last for something like Proficiency Bonus rounds or something like that. A small but meaningful amount of time--growing to be about a whole combat by mid levels.

Even easier than that kludgey fix is to bring up the loser races like this, wotc could probably even do it with a UA or errata. Waiting for a5e to fork off the the problematic base is another option

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think the races are now an utter mess. They just get a wildly differing random amount of stuff, most of which you can swap for whatever so it doesn't even have anything to do with being a member of a specific race. If you want the flexibility but want to retain some balance, then I'd just jettison all the races and build every character as custom lineage, with the caveat that you could swap your feat and/or skill for some features from the normal races. So for example a dragonborn could be a custom lineage that has swapped its extra skill for the breath weapon (it's a rather weak feature, and not worth a feat.)