OSR Must OSR = Deadly?

[Retreater]

I am running a game in Swords and Wizardry and playing in a game in Old School Essentials, both games in the OSR movement. A common feature in both is "things are really hard."

In S&W if the party's magic-user wins Initiative, he can cast Sleep and pretty much take out an entire small dungeon complex. If he loses Initiative, an enemy spellcaster can do the exact same thing - or otherwise the group is surrounded and chopped down pretty quickly.

Our OSE game is a dungeon crawl that sees us make (literally) 40 feet of progress in the dungeon each weekly session before needing to turn back after facing impossible odds. The previous session was stirges we couldn't scare off with torches that killed two party members; this week was three lizardmen who were in a barbaric rage that we couldn't sneak past or reason with.

This isn't the style of game I remember playing back in the 80s and 90s. If it was like this, we'd have never made it to 2nd level.

What gives now? Is the entire OSR movement just for bragging rights for grognards? Is there some in-between system (between OSR and 5e) that is rules-lite, fun, and fast-paced?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I am running a game in Swords and Wizardry and playing in a game in Old School Essentials, both games in the OSR movement. A common feature in both is "things are really hard."

No, of course not.

There's a reason why there was the whole, "Monty Haul" trope and the concern that if you statted up the gods (Deities and Demigods), the PCs would kill them.

OD&D and 1e could be very hard ("Fantasy Vietnam") or they could be a power-trip fantasy; it really depended on table variance.

 

[Krachek]

Deadly is a play style IMO.

 

[Retreater]

No, of course not.

There's a reason why there was the whole, "Monty Haul" trope and the concern that if you statted up the gods (Deities and Demigods), the PCs would kill them.

OD&D and 1e could be very hard ("Fantasy Vietnam") or they could be a power-trip fantasy; it really depended on table variance.

I guess maybe I forgot how we made it survivable back in the day? Even looking at the original books I used, running them today would be death to all characters.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I guess maybe I forgot how we made it survivable back in the day? Even looking at the original books I used, running them today would be death to all characters.

All sorts of ways. Easiest is magic item availability.

But another big one is the rules re: hit points and death (is it 0? do you have a buffer until -10?).

It really depends on what rules you enforce, and how strictly you enforce them. And magic items.

 

[Oofta]

Lethality rate has always been up to the group. I've had campaigns where no one (permanently) died, I had a DM for one session that no PCs survive even though we wrote up 2 PCs each.

 

[embee]

All sorts of ways. Easiest is magic item availability.

But another big one is the rules re: hit points and death (is it 0? do you have a buffer until -10?).

It really depends on what rules you enforce, and how strictly you enforce them. And magic items.

I have a homebrew hybrid of the Minus Ten Equals Dead that I use in 5e.

Damage doesn't stop at 0. If you're at 4 hp (out of 35), and get hit for 9 dmg, you go down to -5, not just 0. Healing adds hp but doesn't necessarily bring you to 1 hp. If you're at -7 and get healed for 5hp, you're now at -2. You're still dying. You can stabilize a downed character to 0 with a DC10 WIS if you have Medicine or DC15 if you don't.

You get 3 death saves just like always. Fail a death save, take another hp of damage. Attacks on you are automatic hits and count for a failed death save.

Fail 3 death saves and you're dead.

Reach -10 and you're dead.

I find it takes the springiness right out of 5e characters but doesn't squash them like an old-school character.

 

[Oofta]

I have a homebrew hybrid of the Minus Ten Equals Dead that I use in 5e.

Damage doesn't stop at 0. If you're at 4 hp (out of 35), and get hit for 9 dmg, you go down to -5, not just 0. Healing adds hp but doesn't necessarily bring you to 1 hp. If you're at -7 and get healed for 5hp, you're now at -2. You're still dying. You can stabilize a downed character to 0 with a DC10 WIS if you have Medicine or DC15 if you don't.

You get 3 death saves just like always. Fail a death save, take another hp of damage. Attacks on you are automatic hits and count for a failed death save.

Fail 3 death saves and you're dead.

Reach -10 and you're dead.

I find it takes the springiness right out of 5e characters but doesn't squash them like an old-school character.

The problem I've always had with the -10 HP is dead is it doesn't matter if you have 6 HP at full health or 106 HP. If I were to do something similar today I'd make it dead at some fraction of full HP (i.e. half).

 

[DemoMonkey]

We just took a boatload of henchmen and hirelings everywhere and used them mercilessly as meat shields until the PCs levelled up enough to be survivable. In the early days, the way we played if you actually took damage at any point you were doing it wrong.

Even a blue dragon in 1st edition didn't last long against a 100 man group with longbows.

 

[embee]

The problem I've always had with the -10 HP is dead is it doesn't matter if you have 6 HP at full health or 106 HP. If I were to do something similar today I'd make it dead at some fraction of full HP (i.e. half).

That gets problematic at higher levels. You're, in essence, giving shadow HP to higher level characters. Sure, officially, you have 106 hp. But really you have 53 sort-of HP below that. So you get knocked unconscious and are at 0 but if someone does 40 dmg, you're still not dead. That's way unbalanced.