D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[Warpiglet-7]

Slimy orc spiders may now be making an appearance in my next game. Kind of like the orc version of a drider but dripping with an acid sting instead of poison.

I was thinking about orcs tending to pits with slimes and puddings that they can let free at the right time.

maybe they have some in vessels that be launched at and broken open on targets.

I have started to think more about synergies or seemingly unrelated teams of monsters that are linked in some reasonable way

 

[Oofta]

I was thinking about orcs tending to pits with slimes and puddings that they can let free at the right time.

maybe they have some in vessels that be launched at and broken open on targets.

I have started to think more about synergies or seemingly unrelated teams of monsters that are linked in some reasonable way

Kobolds (and to a slightly lesser degree goblins) in my world are nasty because they'll throw pots with various nasty things inside. Everything from slimes to swarms to captive wights. There is no thing as "just kobolds".

 

[Zardnaar]

Wizards of th Coast fell in to the trap of trying to standardize play styles and finally realized it was hurting sales.
Pathfinder is going through that now. I think it must be hard to make a game spend all that time working it out and then find out that your in the 5% of the playerbase that plays like you do and that all the money is with the other 95% who play it thier way and never go to forums.

That was kinda obvious once they released the playtest materials.

Last night looked it looks bad for them but that was a while ago.

 

[TheSword]

I don't get this healing thing. The absurd part of it has always been the Cleric. And it's been there right from the beginning. Have people just been looking at it for so long that they can't see it?

It was always obvious back in Ad&d days that the game was unworkable without a Cleric and somewhat absurd with it. Half you face hacked off? Don't worry my god will make it better - day after day after day. (These days I don't care - but it was a major reason given for moving to other systems in the 90s).

I remember the Thieves World D20 game changed all the cure spells to 'convert' spells so they didn't heal you completely they just changed lethal damage into non-lethal. It's amazing how much difference that makes. You couldn't go back into the action straight away but instead had to spend a few hours recuperating. It did more to actually make the game feel gritty then any variation in time spent recovering hit points.

Damned if I can see what difference auto-healing hit points overnight makes from previous editions other then saving bookkeeping. You'd end up in the same place anway. (5E has changed the cleric somewhat in a way I don't like as a result - but that's a different issue, and it's been happening for a while).

If you want damage to feel real then you need to bypass hit points. Lingering Injuries can work (just don't use the table in the DMG without first changing it to match your goals - it's a mess) or levels of exhaustion - which are hard to recover. But making HP take longer to recover without magical healing seems meaningless - so long as you still have the magical healing.

I’m considering using the lingering injuries table in my Rime of the Frost Maiden game.

They will be activated when suffering a crit or being reduced to 0 HP. However when either of these happen the individual takes a DC10 Con ability check (without proficiency). If the damage of the wound was less than 10 you have advantage on the role.

If they fail the injury is permanent - severed hand, lost eye etc. if they pass then the still suffer a lingering injury but it only lasts one week. It’s a broken hand, not a severed hand. It’s a bloodied eye, not a lost eye. The effect is same as the body part can’t be used properly but it’s not as savage.

A medicine check can reduce the time of recovery to less than a week. DC 10 for 1 day less with an extra day less for every 5 points over 10. Provided you have sufficient equipment - bandages etc.

These rules effectively double the chart’s results and reduce their effects.

I’ve also put in place limits for healing the results that require healing. I hate effects that cure with 1hp healing having such a big impact for so little effort. So I’m saying you need to cure at least 10 hp in one go to remove the effect. Lucky result from a lvl 1 cure wounds but generally needing a level 2, or possibly even a level 3 to be sure.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Kobolds (and to a slightly lesser degree goblins) in my world are nasty because they'll throw pots with various nasty things inside. Everything from slimes to swarms to captive wights. There is no thing as "just kobolds".

Wights! Omg! That would be shocking and terrifying!

I still shudder at the thought of being pushed into a pit of ghouls.

it was a cool game moment in that it was not a line up and fight thing but an environmental hazard and escape scenario.

their bosses were kicking down rope ladders to let them up—-a race against time.

eeek!

I like the idea of pets as well. A bugbear with giant pet rats on leashes a la sunless citadel. Unique pairings...

goblins or kobolds dumping other things on adventurers would be a wake up call for sure!

 

[TheSword]

The main issue with injuries is that they usually lead to death spirals. The 4 common types of D&D adventure pacing:

1. Set Pieces
2. Ping-Ponging
3. Long Grind
4. Scheduled Attrition

are seriously harmed by death spirals.

I think death spirals can be avoided when the party sees retreat/extraction as a real need rather than a last resort failure. No idea what ping ponging is though.

A risk of serious injury at 0hp neatly solves the healing word problem that otherwise trivializes combat in a way that fine for a heroic campaign but unsatisfying for a gritty campaign.

 

[Minigiant]

I think death spirals can be avoided when the party sees retreat/extraction as a real need rather than a last resort failure. No idea what ping ponging is though.

A risk of serious injury at 0hp neatly solves the healing word problem that otherwise trivializes combat in a way that fine for a heroic campaign but unsatisfying for a gritty campaign.

The problem is death spirals... spiral.

In any "press your luck" game pace, you end up with failure if the "edge" isn't clearly listed and displayed. If you make the first injuries too severe, the players will never engage threats. But if the first few injuries are insignificant and it takes a while to reach the point of no return, the players will often accidentally step over the edge as there are too many steps to gauge. Spiralling on Floor 1 and Spiralling on Floor 10 can easily be totally different experiences.

 

[TheSword]

The problem is death spirals... spiral.

In any "press your luck" game pace, you end up with failure if the "edge" isn't clearly listed and displayed. If you make the first injuries too severe, the players will never engage threats. But if the first few injuries are insignificant and it takes a while to reach the point of no return, the players will often accidentally step over the edge as there are too many steps to gauge. Spiralling on Floor 1 and Spiralling on Floor 10 can easily be totally different experiences.

Realistically the changes to 5e have reduced the impact of press your luck. Because parties can largely be at full hp before any given new encounter.

Lingering injuries that are linked to critical hits or @Don Durito ’s suggestion of mass damage don’t really disincentivized players to push their luck, because they can happen at any time. The players aren’t safe from this by resting after every encounter (though they would be if it was purely down to reaching 0 hp). Instead players are incentivized to find other solutions, avoid charging in every time - or god forbid - surrender.

I also think lingering injuries are not the game breaker that one at first presumes. Prosthetics, possibly even magically prosthetics, regeneration, experimentation on troll organs, blessings, fiendish rituals etc can all solve the challenge in an interesting way.

Stepping over the edge isn’t a punishment, it is a possible outcome. D&D has never been a great at dealing with loss. It is generally about a continual growth curve. I think that’s probably bad for storytelling and making combat feel dangerous. With the new rules for retraining in Tasha’s adapting to a character who loses a hand at level 3 has never been easier.

 

[Don Durito]

I also think lingering injuries are not the game breaker that one at first presumes. Prosthetics, possibly even magically prosthetics, regeneration, experimentation on troll organs, blessings, fiendish rituals etc can all solve the challenge in an interesting way.

Most of the lingering injuries are not too bad mechanically.

1) Lose an eye. You have disadvantage on wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight and on ranged attack rolls.
2) Lose a foot or leg. Your speed on foot is halved and you must use a can or crutch to move. You have disadvantage on dexterity checks made to balance
3) Internal injuries. Whenever you attempt an action in combat, you must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, you lose your action and can't use your reeactions until the start of your next turn. The injury heals if you receive magical healing or if you spend ten days doing nothing but resting.

These are probably the worst of them. Often the description is worth the the effect. Losing an exe or a foot is not necessarily worse then multiple exhaustion levels.

But I do think it's important to consider how to handle these - some of them need regeneration and some of the it just states magical healing. For eases sake I make lesser regeneration work for all of them (and reduce the effect correspondingly) and it's more easily available. It's a reasonably significant resource cost and if they don't have a Cleric or the Cleric hasn't prepped it, they need to find someone who does - however, most of them aren't so bad that you can't press on until then - which is important because if all they do is enforce downtime then they become a waste of time. The point of the injury is you should feel the injury.

Having lingering injuries on crits is a bad idea. They're far to common and they tend to fall on your front line warriors disproportionately. Using massive damage the way I do has several safe guards. Because it's based on half your total hit points characters with higher total hit points are slightly more protected. And because you add the lower of Strength or Con front line warriors are slightly more protected. The Barbarian with 18 Str and 16 Con only has a 10% of picking up a lingering injury, while the Wizard with 14 Con and 8 Strength has a 25% chance.

 

[TheSword]

Having lingering injuries on crits is a bad idea. They're far to common and they tend to fall on your front line warriors disproportionately. Using massive damage the way I do has several safe guards. Because it's based on half your total hit points characters with higher total hit points are slightly more protected. And because you add the lower of Strength or Con front line warriors are slightly more protected. The Barbarian with 18 Str and 16 Con only has a 10% of picking up a lingering injury, while the Wizard with 14 Con and 8 Strength has a 25% chance.

I think solely having lingering injuries on mass damage would make it almost unheard of past level 5 where most combat characters will need to suffer 25+ damage. Even with crits that seems rare to me.

I may well keep it to a straight up Con save to avoid the crit effect. With failure resulting in a minor effect and a failure by 5 resulting in a longer save. DC being half the damage taken. Most fighters will pass a DC 10 save without too much difficulty and plenty of other classes too. Particularly with the many bonuses characters can get to saves. That keeps it real, gives them a reasonable chance of avoiding them but makes failure a common enough possibility.