D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

[Crimson Longinus]

So guys.

When are we getting an official partial undead race?

I wanna be Blade.

I'd like to have an undead template that could applied over any race. (Then it could be added on characters that have been raised with Raise Dead or Resurrection to give dying a bit more weight!)

 

[Scott Christian]

Stepping away from normal stairs to just take those rules on their own, I'd say penalty enough is a judgment call. The fact that a centaur could climb something a person requires hands and feet to climb is pretty boggling narratively, so saying they do it slower than other PCs does not solve the problem people have with them climbing.

Narratively is there anything saying how this would look? Is there any lore in Ravnica to give centaurs a slow drider wall crawling or rigging climbing ability? Is there something in their fey nature that makes them buoyant with some pixie dust? How does it look when they want to climb something that requires people to use their hands to climb it? Do their human/horse interface parts bend 90 degrees so they look more like a scorpion while scaling? Do they haul themselves up a rope or a cliff with their horse parts at 90 degrees and their back limbs dangling? What does Ravnica give for narrative hooks here? From googling Ravnica centaurs the art from the card game looks like normal centaur art.

Is there anything more than a bare rules statement saying they can slowly climb anything anybody else can?

I would say they want people to use common sense. It is why in the MM they don't give everything a climb speed that can still obviously climb. They don't always give animals and creatures that can obviously swim a swim speed. They would prefer the DM to make a judgement call. The same way they do for all other scenarios encountered dozens of times throughout every play session. All the way to the bard jumps on the chandelier. Some DM's might have it crash on a bad roll. Some might have the bard slip on a bad roll. Some might say he gets stuck upside down with a bad roll. Some might say the bard falls prone with a bad roll. And no book anywhere even says what that roll might be.
And then other DMs might not even have the bard roll. And instead say, your jumping ability, according to the rules, gets you up there.
No right or wrong.

 

[Oofta]

Well, now that we're on page 200 I have a confession to make. We have photographic proof that centaurs can climb just as well as a person.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I'd like to have an undead template that could applied over any race. (Then it could be added on characters that have been raised with Raise Dead or Resurrection to give dying a bit more weight!)

There's something similar to that in the DMG, but it doesn't go in depth at all and is specific to zombies and skeletons, IIRC. There's also the Hollow One option from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount that also works similarly. However, I definitely would want a lot more in depth options for this.

 

[Scott Christian]

So guys.

When are we getting an official partial undead race?

I wanna be Blade.

In our Chult campaign we have a homemade revenant barbarian playing. He was killed by an undead t-rex and is on the hunt. He is also either afraid or raging every time we see a dinosaur.

 

[Scott Christian]

You are punishing (again) the centaur for something he already is being punished for. Lets look at the actual rules:

Equine Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push or drag.
In addition, any climb that requires hands and feet is especially difficult for you because of your equine legs. When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet, instead of the normal 1 extra foot.

Who is punishing? First, in my own game, I wouldn't even have them roll. But, it is all context. Context is king. You obviously are not picturing the top floor of the inn on fire, or a fight breaking out and the centaur trying to run down. Context.

So, a centaur CAN climb, very slowly, using the difficult terrain rules. That is penalty enough. A centaur trying to climb a rope or a steep cliff moved 1 foot per every 5 ft of movement expended; or (assuming he's not a monk or barbarian) in one round he climbs 8 feet while a human can climb 15. If your using a grid; he moves one square (round down) to every 3 squares the human moves. If you want to rule that the centaur is equally ungainly on a spiral staircase, the double or quadruple move penalty is equally acceptable.

That bold part. For your table in your context. If you are talking about climbing a rope, and the centaur moves 40', then they can climb 4' less per round than a dwarf. A 600 pound centaur. If the dwarf has gear and plate on the DM might even make them move at the same speed. Context. Penalty enough for some. Maybe not those that don't see it that way. If the DM says that's the way it is to the dwarf player protesting about this centaur chasing him up the rope to kill him, then there is conflict. A DM finds the balance at their table.

I don't agree with the notion that the centaur needs to make ability checks to do mundane things in mundane settings.

Nor do I. But I am not dismissive of a DM that does.

The example that was placed as Dex checks to climb the stairs in an inn; a completely mundane activity with little or no danger and, in reality, no consequence of failure except to allow the DM (and any other player) a chance to laugh at him when he flops and falls doing mundane tasks. Its comparable to the tiefling getting his tail stuck in the door, a dragonborn unable to use silverwear with his claws, or a tabaxi having to save vs. fleas every time they go into deep woods. To be honest, it feels very ableist, even if that is completely unintentional.

Not being argumentative, but rolls are made all the time that have no consequence to the story or game. Purely mundane things. The halfling and dragonborn having a drinking contest. No reason to roll those con saves except to have a laugh and let the players and/or DM describe them falling off the stool or falling down the stairs. Heck, most DM's I know even give out a point or two of damage from stuff like that. It doesn't stop the players from enjoying it.
The bard flirting with with the barkeep and getting punched for 1 point of damage. The one player we had that put his super-mega-hot sauce in on people's food as a joke, making them roll a con save or have diarrhea the next day. The mage that wakes the barbarian up with mage hand because he is snoring by placing a hot coal on his hand. The centaur could very well just end up being the Dick Van Dyke of the party when walking down the stairs at the inn.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Ravnica/Theros: size medium. Default: size large. Ravnica/Theros: Fey. Default: Monstrosity. Ravnica/Theros: Speed 40. Default: Speed 50. Ravnica/Theros: 1 hit die to start. Default: 6 hit dice to start. Ravnica/Theros: average stats 12, 10, 10, 10, 11, 10. Default: 18, 14, 14, 9, 13, 11. Ravnica/Theros: hooves 1d4. Default: hooves 2d6.

Ah, I see, you are comparing a PC race with an NPC/monster stat block. I thought you were saying Ravnica and Theros centaurs were different. Players don't typically resort to reading the MM to inform their PC build, so I don't see how a player is going to confuse the NPC/monster version of something with a race choice that they selected.

So, do you feel the same way about goblin PCs vs goblin NPCs/monsters? Those PC vs NPC/monster stats have differences, too, and the NPC goblins don't have Fury of the Small.

By the way, Goblins are in Ravnica, Eberon, and Volo's. Are they limited only to certain settings?

Or how about hobgoblins, or kenku, or orcs, or etc...? You find those also confuse players since the PC race differs from the NPC/monster statblock?

By the way, still waiting for you to cite where WotC tells us that races in setting books are limited to just those settings.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Not being argumentative, but rolls are made all the time that have no consequence to the story or game. Purely mundane things. The halfling and dragonborn having a drinking contest. No reason to roll those con saves except to have a laugh and let the players and/or DM describe them falling off the stool or falling down the stairs. Heck, most DM's I know even give out a point or two of damage from stuff like that. It doesn't stop the players from enjoying it.
The bard flirting with with the barkeep and getting punched for 1 point of damage. The one player we had that put his super-mega-hot sauce in on people's food as a joke, making them roll a con save or have diarrhea the next day. The mage that wakes the barbarian up with mage hand because he is snoring by placing a hot coal on his hand. The centaur could very well just end up being the Dick Van Dyke of the party when walking down the stairs at the inn.

I would argue that you've actually assigned meaningful consequences to failures in all of your examples where a roll was asked for. They might not be devastating consequences, but they seemed to all be meaningful to the story, the mechanics, and the fun.

Having someone roll a Dex check to have their PC climb a regular set of stairs, not so much.

If a DM is looking to punish mundane activities of a particular race, the humor of that is going to get old fast. I'd say just ban the race from the game up front.

 

[Gammadoodler]

For some it is not a balance issue. We had a sixty page argument on whether an extra +1, 5% or less, was overpowered. Again, for some. Not everyone. For some.

I never said they can't climb down stairs. It is difficult for them. Maybe even it's not that difficult for centaur, that has a centaur brain. But what about the staircases Oofta pointed out? What about a shanty inn of poor construction? What if there is danger at the bottom of the stairs? What if someone is chasing the centaur? What if the stairs are in the dark? What if one of the stairs has has a bunch of children's toys sitting on it and the centaur needs to get down the stairs immediately? These are all scenarios. All of them the DM adjudicates whether the centaur rolls or not and how difficult it might be.
If the centaur walked down the stairs with no worries and was just going to his room in the inn that wouldn't be suited for him anyway (because a modified version where they deal with centaurs would have a ramp and a larger room they could rest in), I personally wouldn't even have them roll. But circumstances arise. In the example, I immediately thought of situations where they would roll. You obviously put it in a single context, the centaur during his leisure.

Ah, the dragon example. The stairs is a side note in the entire debate of centaurs. It started out as rope ladders and climbing cliff walls. Let's remember the posts about goats and RAW. Then, when it turns out the centaur restricted side said, "whatever works for your table is ok. But, as a DM I should be allowed to make the call that a centaur can't climb a rope ladder to the crow's nest." Then 20 pages later it is the pro centaur side saying, "So now they can't even walk up and down stairs." No mention of it being a table by table decision.

I would say this is endemic of this entire thread. Petty has a negative connotation. It implies the petty person is wrong if they make the centaur roll. Hence, any DM that chooses to run their table where the centaur is at a penalty (EDIT: By penalty, I mean having the centaur roll) while moving up and down stairs in an inn (which everyone pictures differently) is badwrongnofun.

One side says, whatever works for your table. The other side insists their way is correct, and if it isn't then the DM (or DM and players in this example) are petty.

This is a grossly misstated portrayal of this discussion.

 

[Remathilis]

Who is punishing? First, in my own game, I wouldn't even have them roll. But, it is all context. Context is king. You obviously are not picturing the top floor of the inn on fire, or a fight breaking out and the centaur trying to run down. Context.

I AM using context. The context was:

First, give me a DC 15 DEX check to go up the stairs. Fail by more than 5 and you break a tread because you weigh 2,000 lbs. It's not a question of can a horse walk up stairs; it's a question of whether wooden steps can hold a horse's weight.

There is no inn on fire. There is no implication speed is a factor. Embee's context is a centaur on a inn's step needs to make a 15 Dex check or break the step and possibly injure himself because he is a centaur. THAT is the context I'm responding to. No burning inns, no pitching boats, no massive earthquakes, a normal stair in a normal inn.

What is implied is that a DM is making a PC roll to do a mundane thing because he thinks the race shouldn't be able to do it. It is the DM adding a penalty to the race with no actual boost in power. It's punitive.

It's comparable to making a tiefling unable to sit in a chair because it has a tail, or a tabaxi be unable to use silverware because they have claws. Or maybe giving drow and orcs disadvantage to all cha checks because they are viewed as Evil. At a certain point, reality becomes the enemy of fun.