D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

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I think it would be less tired, because it would be grounded in something we can easily conceptualize and understand. Heck, even agree with.

But the Dwarf-Elf thing seems... very arbitrary a lot of the time. Elves don't like dwarves because... They work too hard? They are too serious? They are too stubborn? Dwarves don't like Elves because... they are too haughty? They are too flighty? They party differently? These are all explanations I've seen put forth in various media but they always seem... incomplete.


Sure on an individual level, I can see finding someone too stubborn to really get along with, but judging an entire culture of people that way? It doesn't jive.

And the thing is... a lot of these traits cut both ways. Dwarves may be famously stubborn, but how many tales of elven kings or lords involve them stubbornly keeping their borders closed? Dwarves are tireless workers, but Elves will also work ceaseless for centuries to master a single skill. Dwarves are too dour and serious? The "look down my nose at you" stuffy character is almost always a high elf, the one that stands on ceremony like a throne.

They are almost more similiar than they are truly different, which sure, that can be an amusing source of friction, but it has been a thing for decades, and it is just... not interesting.
Wow. That is a great explanation. It being "incomplete" seems very legit. Regarding the stubborn thing (in that medium), I had always looked at it as they are both stubborn, therefore that creates the dislike. Like a parent and sibling who are so similar they have a hard time being around one another. You would think after 400 years that would fall to the wayside like it does in humans after 20 or 30 years. But, maybe that is why humans are so adaptable according to the PHB. ;)
Thanks again for the explanation. It's appreciated.
 

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I mean, it didn't really shape my opinion of teachers. I'd say 90% of my student/teacher relationships have been thoroughly positive. It just stuck out as such an incredibly weird behavior. I never had any actual classes with that teacher, even. I was only in that classroom for outreach purposes (pitching Speech & Debate team) between classes, so it wasn't even like I could be seen as challenging her "in public" so to speak. But it did show me that sometimes, even people who should be open to knowledge and truth...just aren't. Even if they're rare, it's important to think about their impact.
Good to know and definitely something to always consider.
I'd say it's less "incredible" luck and more just good luck, but I'm glad you've had such a good run. I find, like with most semi-insular communities, "gamer" tends to result in one of two attitudes. Either there's an inherent tendency to trust and support, because "we're in this together" so to speak; or there's an inherent distrust, because "how do I know you're safe?" The majority tend to fall into the first group, but a sizable minority make up the second--and, unfortunately, I find the latter is slightly more driven to seek the DM role, because then they know things will be done (as they see it) "right."
The "we're in this together" is definitely pretty tight, especially among a certain age group that had to grow up through the age of geeks are bad and stupid. Middle school, high school, heck even college I can remember people making fun of us. Again, I got lucky. Had good friends. We enjoyed it and basically spent our 8th grade lunch years in our Algebra's teacher's room (Mr. Seman no less!) playing D&D. But that second group in today's world seems to be mixed in with the crowd that just wants to try it because it is popular (which is a good thing) which can cause its own problems.
Well, if you've seen the same plotline done a hundred times, and all but the first have been done poorly, indeed a general trend of each being more poorly-written than the last, I can see fatigue setting in. Tolkien gave a clear reason for the unease between dwarves and elves in his cosmology....and also prominently featured a dwarf sorta-prince who thought Galadriel was the most beautiful woman on (Middle-)Earth and whose mutual best friend was an elf. A lot--and I really do mean a LOT--of later works never bother to give an explanation. They JUST assert "dwarves and elves dislike each other" and explain nothing.

It's the Planet of Hats problem, just in microcosm form. We don't have to do the balls-to-the-wall worldbuilding that Tolkien did, but even for a lot of well-loved, famous fantasy literature, they just don't do any of that stuff. They rely on cliches and dead-horse tropes. Consider The Belgariad or the Inheritance Cycle. The problem isn't even restricted to fantasy; consider comic books. The 90s Dark Age of Comics happened in the wake of bold, nuanced works like Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns that prominently featured dark themes but weren't solely ABOUT being super ultra dark. They then spawned an enormous wave of entirely plastic, hollow imitations that pumped the GRIMDARK to 11 without justifying it, and (more importantly) without showing that this is a mistake that powerful-yet-disconnected-from-humanity figures are prone to experiencing.
Great example. And so true. That is one of the reasons I always liked The Witcher's world. Xenophobia is seeped into culture. Elves were killed through genocide. And now, despite their long life, they can't procreate with one another, which makes for only half-elves - which of course is a huge slap in the face to elves. Dwarves are wanderers and subject to the same racism although not as much. But I also get that that world isn't for everyone. Even though it is explained in the books, not everyone wants to play that in their game when there is enough already in real life.
So frame it in those terms: If you see a new, black-trenchcoat-clad, blood-dripping-down-his-sword "dark and troubled" super-so-called-"hero" with a name like "Youngblood" or "Darktalon" or "Slayter" etc., who "doesn't play by the rules" and all that...are you honestly going to say that 100% of the time you'll excitedly say, "Ooh, I wonder what they've done to make this concept actually work?" Because I'm going to be very surprised if you don't have at least a little reaction of "oh God, another one of THESE?"
I'll be honest. If it is that cheesy, then I grab popcorn and want to bathe in the cheese, generally Mystery Science Theater in my head style. You are talking to a person who sat in a line at midnight (it was only us), playing D&D (inspired by the movie), to watch the premier Wrath of Titans - and we knew it was gonna be bad.
That said, a whole campaign of it, depending on how good the DM is, it might fall to the wayside for me. I have had some DMs that never bring something new or fresh in, yet they and the table are just good, so it makes it just as fun as any other game. But, your point is taken and absolutely agreed with. (I am sure my wife can tell you about my eye rolling towards many of her reality shows - which are tropes I am tired of.)
That's the problem. All too often, there aren't nuances. It's just an author (or, in this case, DM) riding on Tolkien's coattails.
Fair enough. For some though, maybe it isn't an important part of the story line. My rule has always been this:
  • Show don't tell
  • If it creates conflict in the story it had better been shown prior to the conflict (unless I want it to be a complete surprise)
 

Well, like it was said so eloquently earlier in the thread - so much of the hobby is chained to the corpse of Tolkien.
Sorry Hussar, I still do not agree with this. There are so many differences between FR and Tolkien. Many more than what people give credit for. Just because D&D elves and dwarves share very similar qualities to Tolkien's doesn't make the world "chained" to Tolkien.
 

I think it is fair to say that Tolkien was a big part of the foundation of D&D as we know it. But there are lots of parts there, Gygax, Arneson, Howard, Burroughs, cheap plastic minis from Hong Kong, the list goes on.

Elves and dwarves bear a passing resemblance, and the very original versions they were closer (especially elves). They've continued to evolve ever since.
 

Right, and why did Tolkien Elves and Dwarves not get along?

I remember one part "you didn't help defend our homes against that dragon, leaving our people to exile" and a whole lot of... not much else. I mean, all the dwarves we see in the series are same clan, who were betrayed by the elven King, so even if they professed a whole lot of "well, you are crude" and "You are tall and thin and prissy" the root seems to be that one historical moment, something that shouldn't be passed down without context.
Hmm. Not much else other than perhaps the dwarves murdering the elven king, wife to Melian the Maia and father of Luthien, in his own home and trying to steal a Silmaril. After Thingol hurled grave insults at the dwarves. Then the dwarves roused a great army and stole all of the elves' treasure, only to be waylaid on the way back by an elven army and killed to a dwarf. Nah. That's not important or anything.

Also, Tolkien dwarves are a very close knit people with very long memories. It doesn't matter if they were one clan. All the other clans remember and harbor the grudge. Elves on the other hand are immortal, so their memories are inherently long and also are harboring that grudge.
 
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Really? You find this trope tiresome.
If it was dwarves and gnomes bickering over mining rights would it suddenly be fresh and not tired?
I am genuinely curious, in part, because I have never understood this notion of tired tropes. My reasoning is, if that road is taken then everything, and I do mean everything, is a tired trope. The road of fiction is well travelled. There are no new ideas, plot lines, etc. They are all recycled, and this includes D&D.
So I am asking with sincerity, does the gnome-dwarf suddenly make the two races having clashing views tolerable?
In your example, a subset of dwarves (who have interest in mining) and a subset of gnomes (who have interest in mining) are at odd about the mining they have interests in. This is natural storytelling.

It is also NOT the same thing as saying every dwarf is mildly annoyed by every elf. That is lazy. It's also a trope.
 

Hmm. Not much else other than perhaps the dwarves murdering the elven king, wife to Melian the Maia and father of Luthien, in his own home and trying to steal a Silmaril. After Thingol hurled grave insults at the dwarves. Then the dwarves roused a great army and stole all of the elves' treasure, only to be waylaid on the way back by an elven army and killed to a dwarf. Nah. That's not important or anything.

Also, Tolkien dwarves are a very close knit people with very long memories. It doesn't matter if they were one clan. All the other clans remember and harbor the grudge. Elves on the other hand are immortal, so their memories are inherently long and also are harboring that grudge.
Is this only in the Silmarillion? If so, it's a great example of having lore but not really using it.
 

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It is also NOT the same thing as saying every dwarf is mildly annoyed by every elf. That is lazy. It's also a trope.

In 5E though it's not even "mildly annoyed" IMHO. It's just a cultural and approach to life clash, a difference in ideologies. It may lead to other issues (and dwarves and elves have long memories), but that's a side effect.

They go out of their way in the descriptions to say that while they may not get along all that well, they also appreciate each other's strengths.
 



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