D&D 5E rogue-bladesinger?

[Flamestrike]

@auburn2
Same scenario, but would you like your turn again, starting from 'you open the door and see 6 orcs in the middle of the room; roll initiative.'

Same scenario as above, but we can take it from turn 1 of round 1 (you).

The Orcs go next. The Cleric (he's slow) is next to you, the Rogue and Ranger at the back of the formation.

 

[Flamestrike]

To make this a lot easier for you, your answer should be 'I cast fireball'.

That kills all the Orcs, and badly wounds the Orogs, who likely cant kill you (AC 16, 21 with shield) or the Cleric (AC 18) this turn, before getting pasted by the rear Archers (Rogue and Ranger) ending the combat in 1 round, before the Cleric has even had a turn.

The Cleric then heals you (or him) and on you go.

 

[Xetheral]

@auburn2
Same scenario, but would you like your turn again, starting from 'you open the door and see 6 orcs in the middle of the room; roll initiative.'

Same scenario as above, but we can take it from turn 1 of round 1 (you).

The Orcs go next. The Cleric (he's slow) is next to you, the Rogue and Ranger at the back of the formation.

This shows very poor door-opening practices on the part of the party, and extremely poor defensive positioning on the part of the orcs and orogs.

Grouping up near an internal door of a defended structure and opening it without any idea of what is on the other side, or taking any defensive precautions (like precast spells), is indeed a D&D caricature, but it's pretty clear from @auburn2's posts that that's not how their table plays the game.

It sounds like at your table, encounters often begin with everyone within 30' of each other, and thus your observation of the inability of the Bladesinger to draw fire is accurate at your table. But if a party has a nigh-unhittable Bladesinger, they can use that to their advantage by making sure other other characters are less accessible just by using distance.

Assuming that the time pressure precludes standard door procedures (e.g. rogue sneaking up and listening, then reporting back with intel to formulate a proper breaching plan) the safest way to open that door blind is to have the Bladesinger precast Blur, then open the door while the rest of the party is in full cover at the top of the staircase you described. Given the moronic enemy guard formation, you are correct that Fireball is the optimal plan: with the time pressure killing the enemies quickly in the scenario you've described is more important than killing them efficiently. But if the orcs have instead wisely spread out throughout the room using furniture as cover (or in a wide-open room putt half the force on the same wall as the entry door, with the other half blocking the next door), the optimal move for the Bladesinger is to be "armored" recon: use Bladesong, spend an action calling out to the other PCs the enemy locations, then physically block the open doorway (or close the door and flee if the defenders were overwhelming.) The party can then safely move forward and use its superior ranged firepower to remotely dominate the most important feature of the room: the next doorway leading further into the structure.

 

[Flamestrike]

This shows very poor door-opening practices on the part of the party, and extremely poor defensive positioning on the part of the orcs and orogs.

Its a party of a Wizard, Ranger, Cleric and Rogue in formation in a 10' wide hallway, opening a dungeon door and fighting Orcs in the room beyond.

I almost couldn't get more 'standard party in dungeon doing standard dungeon stuff' if I tried.

Assuming that the time pressure precludes standard door procedures (e.g. rogue sneaking up and listening, then reporting back with intel to formulate a proper breaching plan) the safest way to open that door blind is to have the Bladesinger precast Blur, then open the door while the rest of the party is in full cover at the top of the staircase you described.

You now have an isolated Wizard with a spell pre-cast (with a 1 minute duration) and the rest of the party 50' behind and up a staircase and unable to even see into the room, let alone support the Wizard. The Cleric with his 25' move needs to dash just to get down there, and as long as the Orogs stay back other PCs cant even see them.

If the room had some kind of AoE monster in it, or Save or suck monster in it, the party are a round away from helping the wizard. Also, the Wizard would want to pray there is nothing in the room with blindsight (ignores blur) and also that he wins initiative vs the rooms occupants.

In this case you know its Orcs sitting around playing cards (or whatever} in the middle of the room.

Thanks to your tactics, a few might now run off and alert the rest of the dungeon for reinforcements, and there is little the Wizard can do about it.

Instead, the Orcs need to be put down fast and decisively.

Given the moronic enemy guard formation, you are correct that Fireball is the optimal plan: with the time pressure killing the enemies quickly

Its not just time pressure that is paramount (and they have 4 hours, so they actually have time for a Short rest or two), its resource management.

Fireball likely gets the job done with the least party resource drain, preserving slots and hit points for the 5-5 encounters to come.

Dashing through the room cost the PCs a 3rd level slot from the Cleric, 39 HP from the Rogue, a use of Bladesong, and a shield spell (to date). Unless the Bladesinger can stop the Orc from executing the (failed one death save already) Rogue before the Orcs have a turn (they go next), its also going to cost them a diamond and ANOTHER 3rd level slot on the Revivify for the Rogue (plus some HD and potions or more slots to heal the Rogue) plus the Orogs (who go first) might also drop the Spirit guardians (as they're likely to now attack the Cleric).

 

[Xetheral]

Its a party of a Wizard, Ranger, Cleric and Rogue in formation in a 10' wide hallway, opening a dungeon door and fighting Orcs in the room beyond.

I almost couldn't get more 'standard party in dungeon doing standard dungeon stuff' if I tried.



You now have an isolated Wizard with a spell pre-cast (with a 1 minute duration) and the rest of the party 50' behind and up a staircase and unable to even see into the room, let alone support the Wizard. The Cleric with his 25' move needs to dash just to get down there, and as long as the Orogs stay back other PCs cant even see them.

If the room had some kind of AoE monster in it, or Save or suck monster in it, the party are a round away from helping the wizard. Also, the Wizard would want to pray there is nothing in the room with blindsight (ignores blur) and also that he wins initiative vs the rooms occupants.

In this case you know its Orcs sitting around playing cards (or whatever} in the middle of the room.

Thanks to your tactics, a few might now run off and alert the rest of the dungeon for reinforcements, and there is little the Wizard can do about it.

Instead, the Orcs need to be put down fast and decisively.


Its not just time pressure that is paramount (and they have 4 hours, so they actually have time for a Short rest or two), its resource management.

Fireball likely gets the job done with the least party resource drain, preserving slots and hit points for the 5-5 encounters to come.

Dashing through the room cost the PCs a 3rd level slot from the Cleric, 39 HP from the Rogue, a use of Bladesong, and a shield spell (to date). Unless the Bladesinger can stop the Orc from executing the (failed one death save already) Rogue before the Orcs have a turn (they go next), its also going to cost them a diamond and ANOTHER 3rd level slot on the Revivify for the Rogue (plus some HD and potions or more slots to heal the Rogue) plus the Orogs (who go first) might also drop the Spirit guardians (as they're likely to now attack the Cleric).

The grouped-up-near-the-door formation may be "traditional" but that is not the same thing as universal. At your table, a nigh-unhittable Bladesinger might be useless. At a table that does not only use "traditional" tactics there is more room to make good use of their Bladesinger.

Yes, the alternative tactics I described have risk, but breaching any door blind is a risk. The nigh-unhittable Bladesinger is better able than most characters to survive unknown risks, but the "traditional" tactics you've described fail to leverage that capability, and instead subject the whole party to the unknown risks, rather than focusing them on the party member most likely to survive them. Assuming that the party will not leverage the Bladesinger's capabilities to their advantage seems a poor way to evaluate the potential contribution of @auburn2's build.

With regards to a one-round delay for recon after opening the door, if that delay is outcome determinitive, then the party is already doomed--it would be simple for the enemies to station an orc in full cover in the next room to run for help, ensuring that the PCs couldn't stop the enemy's call for backup. (And if the enemy isn't the type to position a runner in advance, then delaying six seconds for recon isn't going to make them more likely to send a runner.)

 

[Flamestrike]

The nigh-unhittable Bladesinger is better able than most characters to survive unknown risks,

No, he's not. He's a Wizard with high AC.

but the "traditional" tactics you've described fail to leverage that capability, and instead subject the whole party to the unknown risks,

The party is stronger together than apart. Our Cleric cant do anything meaningful (bless the PCs at the back and move down the hallway? No spirit guardians? A round or two of running to get to the Wizard to heal him etc.

rather than focusing them on the party member most likely to survive them. Assuming that the party will not leverage the Bladesinger's capabilities to their advantage

Its not up to the party to leverage it. Its up to the monsters (and DM). Unless the party has some way of forcing the PCs to attack the Wizard then he cant leverage it.

He relies on monsters flailing away at his AC (and the DM putting a ton of attack roll dependent monsters in the adventure to begin with).

You realise you're literally requiring the Wizard to be up the front, alone, opening doors, wasting his spells on defence, and dodging.

Let that sink in for a bit.

My argument is the Wizard would be a lot better utilised, being a Wizard.

 

[Xetheral]

No, he's not. He's a Wizard with high AC.



The party is stronger together than apart. Our Cleric cant do anything meaningful (bless the PCs at the back and move down the hallway? No spirit guardians? A round or two of running to get to the Wizard to heal him etc.


Its not up to the party to leverage it. Its up to the monsters (and DM). Unless the party has some way of forcing the PCs to attack the Wizard then he cant leverage it.

He relies on monsters flailing away at his AC (and the DM putting a ton of attack roll dependent monsters in the adventure to begin with).

You realise you're literally requiring the Wizard to be up the front, alone, opening doors, wasting his spells on defence, and dodging.

Let that sink in for a bit.

My argument is the Wizard would be a lot better utilised, being a Wizard.

Class role appears to be very important to you. It's not to me, and I suspect it's also not to @auburn2. If I'm in a party that has a character that can occasionally make themselves nigh-unhittable, I'm going to leverage it by striving, on those occasions, to ensure that the enemy's only valid target is that character. Whether that's by using terrain, hiding, full cover, social engineering, or simply putting the character far in front (supported from a distance by long-range characters) the nigh-unhittable character is a resource for me to leverage to engage the enemy while limiting their ability to fight back.

It doesn't matter to me if that character is a fighter or a wizard--what matters is their effective HP total (as modified by their AC and resistance to being critically hit) and their ability to survive other threats (like elemental damage and debuffs). A Bladesinger who is using their defensive capabilities happens to be pretty good at those categories. And if I don't think I'm going to be able to make the Bladesinger the only valid (or at least, most appealing) target in a particular encounter (e.g. wide-open space, highly mobile enemies), then I'll employ a different strategy instead, and use the Bladesinger in a different role.

Doors are a natural chokepoint, however, which are ideal for limiting the enemy's melee options. Sure, they might choose not to attack the Bladesinger if the Bladesinger can't be hit, but with the Bladesinger in front blocking the doorway the melee enemies can't hit anyone else either. Maybe the enemy opts to use less-effective ranged attacks against the other PCs (who have cover from the Bladesinger). If so, that's still better for the party than a melee brawl, especially with the example party where the PCs have dominant ranged capability.

So yes, I'm absolutely going to put the Bladesinger up front when blindly breaching a door of a enemy structure. Of the four available characters, they are the most survivable option, and I don't dare have the rest of the party be in AoE range of the point character. Sure, the Bladesinger is taking a huge risk, particularly if there are multiple enemy spellcaster behind the door, but against those spellcasters it would be even worse to have the whole party standing in a group by the door, ready to be taken out by AoE.

 

[auburn2]

Yes it is. You're doing you. I'm doing the monsters (and the other PCs, who go after them). You dont get to dictate who tanks you and who doesnt, thats up to the DM (in this case, me).

The PCs were in typical formation, heading down a 50' long and 10' wide hallway leading down some stairs, that ended in a door. Opening the door revealed the initial 40' wide room with a door opposite it, and the Orcs, triggering initiative.

If the PCs are in "typical formation" means they are all behind the bladesinger, not all in the room like you said. That is fundamentally different from your initial set up. They are behind the bladesinger with 5 foot spacing - bladesinger, cleric, rogue, ranger. So ranger is 30 feet down the hall from the door. Bladesinger opens the door sees the Orcs causes initiative, the orcs and orogs get their over the top extremely high rolls, the bladesinger backs up into the hallway just beyond the threashold of the door, goes into bladesong and takes dodge action.

Go ahead it is your turn.

The orcs and Orogs all saw the bladesinger some of them saw the cleric too, 10' behind her. Most can't see the other two PCs yet and ALL of the PCs except the bladesinger have either a wall or one or more characters between them and the enemey.

I will point out if you as the DM make any of the PCs be stupid again or try to cast spirit guardians I am going to cast levitate on them and put them on the ceiling until the battle is over. If the cleric feels a need to cast a spell in round 1 have her cast bless.

 

[auburn2]

Grouping up near an internal door of a defended structure and opening it without any idea of what is on the other side, or taking any defensive precautions (like precast spells), is indeed a D&D caricature, but it's pretty clear from @auburn2's posts that that's not how their table plays the game.

I am not the one who decided that, that is how flamestrike set it up the first time. We open the door and just all file in like we are on a stroll through the park and got set up inside the room 20' from the enemy. I was furious about that because it put us at a huge disadvantage and I thought that was clear in my earlier diatribe. It is absolutely not what my group would do. As far as precast spells, it is mage armor and probably bladeward and guidance on the bladesinger, not using any additional slots as we presumably don't know what if anything is on the other side of the door despite the scouting.

If we are expecting a big fight, absolutely blur like you said, but that is heavy if you don't know you will be fighting right away.

As for opening with fireball it is the most efficient (although honestly I probably have hypnotic pattern and counterspell prepared). This is the first encounter of the day though and it is 2 CR2 and 4 CR1/2 monsters and they are attack only monsters without save or suck abilities. We can take them easy if we play smart using minimal resources. So I am probably not going to use my third level spell in the first turn. If they try to flee then maybe yes ... or maybe not.

 

[auburn2]

@auburn2
Same scenario, but would you like your turn again, starting from 'you open the door and see 6 orcs in the middle of the room; roll initiative.'

Same scenario as above, but we can take it from turn 1 of round 1 (you).

The Orcs go next. The Cleric (he's slow) is next to you, the Rogue and Ranger at the back of the formation.

It is not the same scennario, because now the party is spaced out behind me where they should be. They are no longer the dumbest party in the history of d&d. I put the move above.