Sell me on Savage Worlds

[MGibster]

Agreed. I'm not really a fan of systems or games that are into almost needless "equipment porn." It seems to run contrary to the spirit of the rest of the game.

Some of this might be in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think Savage Worlds is a game where players are overburdened with keeping track of equipment. There are some exceptions, Rifts of course, and Interface Zero (cyberpunk setting), but in most campaigns I've participated in equipment hasn't been a source of frustration. In many games a character's equipment list might not change significantly over the course of the campaign.

 

[Flamestrike]

Some of this might be in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think Savage Worlds is a game where players are overburdened with keeping track of equipment. There are some exceptions, Rifts of course, and Interface Zero (cyberpunk setting), but in most campaigns I've participated in equipment hasn't been a source of frustration. In many games a character's equipment list might not change significantly over the course of the campaign.

It's more how the equipment works (via combat) which is antithetical to the games premise of 'fast, furious and fun'.

See also:

I said it before, if the players aren't willing to dig in to the rules and really get a handle on the action / resolution feedback loop, combat can devolve into a slog. It's not about the raw addition/subtraction of the numbers; it's the ability of the players to conceive what the numbers are doing and how they maximize their results working as a team.

Choosing from a list of 20 different combat actions (rapid attack, 3RB, Autofire, multi-actions, called shots, taunt etc) from a sheet, then calculating modfiers (-2 for each action, autofire penalties, called shot penalty, range penalties, wound penalties, offset by rangefinders, lasers etc), rolling multiple dice vs the modified TN, calculating successes and raises, rolling damage on exploding dice, calcutating that, then subtracting your opponents toughness and armor (less the AP value of your gun) and dividing that result by 4 to determine how many wounds you inflict (then them rolling to soak that damage) is completely antithetical to a game designed to be 'fast, furious and fun' and also to the abstract skills and ability score rules that precede it.

Im not saying there is anything fundamentally wrong with such a system; it's just completely at odds with the simplistic, abstract and fast rules for skills and abilitiy scores that precede it, and also at odds with the core premise of the game.

 

[MGibster]

Choosing from a list of 20 different combat actions (rapid attack, 3RB, Autofire, multi-actions, called shots, taunt etc) from a sheet, then calculating modfiers (-2 for each action, autofire penalties, called shot penalty, range penalties, wound penalties, offset by rangefinders, lasers etc), rolling multiple dice vs the modified TN, calculating successes and raises, rolling damage on exploding dice, calcutating that, then subtracting your opponents toughness and armor (less the AP value of your gun) and dividing that result by 4 to determine how many wounds you inflict (then them rolling to soak that damage) is completely antithetical to a game designed to be 'fast, furious and fun' and also to the abstract skills and ability score rules that precede it.

Aside from new players (and trying to play Rifts), I've never seen anyone have a particularly difficult time with the combat options in Savage Worlds. It's not like most players are concerned with all the options from round-to-round. If a character doesn't have Taunt the player is unlikely to try to use it, if armed with a revolver they're not concerned with 3 round bursts, wound penalties are trivially easy to keep track of, and even rolling damage and comparing it to toughness is fairly simple. Combat in Savage Worlds is much, much quicker than it is in most other RPGs I play.

 

[innerdude]

Aside from new players (and trying to play Rifts), I've never seen anyone have a particularly difficult time with the combat options in Savage Worlds. It's not like most players are concerned with all the options from round-to-round. If a character doesn't have Taunt the player is unlikely to try to use it, if armed with a revolver they're not concerned with 3 round bursts, wound penalties are trivially easy to keep track of, and even rolling damage and comparing it to toughness is fairly simple. Combat in Savage Worlds is much, much quicker than it is in most other RPGs I play.

Agreed.

The only players I've seen have trouble with it are the ones who doggedly refuse, month after month, to just take the 30-60 minutes needed to read through and try to comprehend the available combat options.

It would be much the same as a D&D player who never bothered to look at their class abilities, then continuously shows up for 6 months of play and has to ask his fellow players, "So, what should my character be doing right now?"

 

[Flamestrike]

Aside from new players (and trying to play Rifts), I've never seen anyone have a particularly difficult time with the combat options in Savage Worlds. It's not like most players are concerned with all the options from round-to-round.

https://silentmaskrpg.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/combat-survival-guide-swade-v5.pdf

The above PDF summarises just the basic combat options.

The below flowchart primarily summarises the combat resolution mechanic:

Combat in Savage Worlds is much, much quicker than it is in most other RPGs I play.

How can you say that?
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Firing a automatic bust in Star Wars Saga Edition: If your weapon is capable of autofire, you make a single attack roll (1d20+bonus) vs TN of 10 to hit an area of 4 squares. Every target in those squares takes half damage (if your attack roll is less than their Reflex defence) or full damage if the attack equals or exceeds their Reflex defence. You then roll damage, and subtract from HP.

One roll to hit on a d20+mods. One roll to damage. Done.
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Firing an automatic burst in SWADE: You check the ROF of your weapon (2-4 usually) and then roll 1 Shooting die for every single point of ROF (and a single Wild die, the latter of which can replace the roll of one of your Shooting die). All die can explode, and may trigger a raise if you roll 4 higher than your DC, adding +1d6 to the damage roll (or 'hitting innocent bystanders' on rolls of 1, and also with 1's on the Wild die and the Shooting die leading to a catastrophic failure of some kind.). You then roll damage (taking into account raises on those Shooting rolls) for each of those Shooting die that hit separately (on exploding dice), sum that total, and then compare this total to a value equal to [your targets Toughness plus Armor, less the AP value of the weapon you're shooting]. For every 4 full points left over, you cause a wound to your target.

Repeat this per shot in your burst that hit your target(s) (i.e. 2-4 times)

Your target(s) now may then roll to Soak those wounds, by rolling a Toughness die (and a Wild die) that explode, and taking the best result, with every 4 points reducing a wound.
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Mate, I know you love the system but those mechanics aren't even close to comparable, and I know which one is the more complex, time consuming, math heavy and a total pain to use.

The Savage Worlds rules for combat are stripped right from a 1980's or 90's fantasy (gun porn) heartbreaker. Weirdly super crunchy, hard to understand, mathy, and ultra-simulationist... for a game that elsewhere is incredibly abstract, and easy to use and understand.

Its a jarring disconnect; it's almost like they slapped two totally different games together.

 

[Aldarc]

Agreed.

The only players I've seen have trouble with it are the ones who doggedly refuse, month after month, to just take the 30-60 minutes needed to read through and try to comprehend the available combat options.

It would be much the same as a D&D player who never bothered to look at their class abilities, then continuously shows up for 6 months of play and has to ask his fellow players, "So, what should my character be doing right now?"

I think that Flamestrike's main thrust here is that the "30-60 minutes needed to read through and try to comprehend the available combat options" could have easily been reduced to 10-15 minutes to make it more consistent with the otherwise fast/fun parts of the game.

Reading through SWADE honestly reminds me a lot of reading through 3e D&D, both of which were born from a similar simulationist heavy era out of the preceding '90s. SWADE may have been fast by 2003 standards, but system processors have improved their processing speeds considerably since then.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think that Flamestrike's main thrust here is that the "30-60 minutes needed to read through and try to comprehend the available combat options" could have easily been reduced to 10-15 minutes to make it more consistent with the otherwise fast/fun parts of the game.

Reading through SWADE honestly reminds me a lot of reading through 3e D&D, both of which were born from a similar simulationist heavy era out of the preceding '90s. SWADE may have been fast by 2003 standards, but system processors have improved their processing speeds considerably since then.

A simple 'stance' mode (elect on your turn offensive or defensive), plus single action turns + possible bonus action (depending on Edges etc), and 'one roll' action resolution would have been so much better.

Something that is fast, furious and fun (as advertised).

I dont find crunching the math on the various combat actions to be any of those three things. I can literally do something as complex as fly a spaceship with a single roll in the game, but firing a burst at a creature requires multiple rolls, a unique subsystem, addition, subtraction, division and multiplication.

If I cant explain the various options to a 12 year old inside of 5 minutes, and have them understand them and be able to process them and perform to a competent level, it's too complex. I could teach a child to drive a car faster than I could teach them the various options available for them in combat in that game.

I can quickly explain the rules and action resolution with attributes, skills, traits and edges. Combat OTOH requires a real grasp of the many options, multiple decision points (with 3 actions per turn) and math.

Its like comparing Pathfinder 2Es action economy and crunch with 5E's simplicity.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. Its just I find half the game appeals to the guys that like abstraction and simplicity, and the other half appeals to guys that like hard core simulationism and math.

 

[MGibster]

The only players I've seen have trouble with it are the ones who doggedly refuse, month after month, to just take the 30-60 minutes needed to read through and try to comprehend the available combat options.

My group has been playing Savage Worlds on and off for almost a decade now and I still get a player who sometimes asks if he needs to roll a Wild die when making a Vigor check.

 

[MGibster]

How can you say that?

I tend to use D&D as my gold standard and combat in Savage Worlds typically runs much, much quicker. When running D&D, I have to keep track of hit points for each NPC or creature, their abilities, spell lists, conditions, etc., etc. It's just much easier and quicker to run combat in Savage Worlds. Again, Rifts being one of the notable exceptions.

 

[MGibster]

Actually, we hardly ever use vehicles in Savage Worlds because, as one of my players put it, vehicle rules in that game are stupid. Vehicles often have stupid high Toughness scores and correspondingly stupid high armor. A Abrams tank has a 57 Toughness with 37 of that being armor. And a TOW missile has an armor piercing value of 34. With vehicles, it does get ridiculous calculating armor piercing.